Church is Messy

Church Is Messy, 09-23-2026 Ep152
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Svea: Well, good morning, Rick. We're back with Church Is Messy, and, uh, and a special episode this week- Mm-hmm ... on our Vision Sunday weekend.

Rick: That's right. That's right, and I'm ready to talk about that, but not yet.

Svea: Not yet. Svea, do you- You've got something else on

Rick: your

Svea: mind ...

Rick: do you ... Today, as we're recording, do you know what today is?

Svea: Well, I didn't until you came into the office and you walked down the office hall greeting everyone with, "Hey, everyone, it's the first day of

Rick: fall." It is the first day of fall. I love it. The weather is great. It looks beautiful outside. It's football season. It's hunting season. Church life really kicks into high gear.

It's all of my favorite things right

Svea: now. I'm picking up the vibe that this is your favorite season.

Rick: Yes, yes. So Svea, we're doing something pretty fun right now.

And, uh, I've, we've kinda kicked it around back and forth, not on the mic, but now let's decide, are we gonna let the people in on what's coming next for the Church Is Messy podcast?

Svea: Well, if we decide not to, there might be some frustration and confusion. Sure, sure. Sure. So I think, I think we should.

Rick: What are we sitting in right now?

Svea: Well, we're sitting in the exact same room we've sat in the entire time- Mm-hmm ... that this podcast has been going.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: But it's a little bit different now.

Rick: That's right. It is now a video podcast studio.

Svea: We've gotten requests over the years- Yeah ... so many times from people- Yeah ... who said, "You know, I'm not sure I'm a podcast person. I'd much rather be able to get to watch you guys and see you have this conversation." It will be now possible.

Rick: Your wish is our command.

So we're still gonna launch, uh, and drop every week audio only, and that's what- No

Svea: change to that ...

Rick: no change to that. That's my favorite way to consume podcasts, but for people who want kind of a video version, we've got that. We're experimenting, and today is our last day of experimenting with video, and it, uh, drops next week- the very first video episode.

Svea: So we start our fall series-

Rick: Fall series ...

Svea: next week. That's right. And so we'll begin offering the video option of- Yeah ... the podcast.

Rick: You're gonna have to stop, sitting here in your housecoat and your pajamas and stuff- ... uh, podcast. You have to dress up for the podcast now.

Svea: Housecoat. How old are you?

Rick: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. No, it, uh, you always dress professionally. I sometimes come in a little bit greg. Today I'm wearing my hoodie, and, uh, to celebrate fall.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: If it was 90 degrees outside, I would be wearing a hoodie because today's the first day of fall, but it feels good.

Yeah.

Svea: Yeah. No, it's a nice, nice day.

So let's jump into the content for today. So as I mentioned at the top- Mm-hmm ... we're focused this week on Vision Sunday. Every year, you take one Sunday in September just to remind us- Mm-hmm ... of our vision as a church- Just part of our cadence, yeah ... of where we've been, where we're headed. Mm-hmm. Um, just part of the rhythm.

Who we

Rick: are,

Svea: yeah. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and this week, you focused on an particularly unique aspect of our church-

Rick: Tell me more ...

Svea: and the age and the history- Yeah ... that we have here.

Rick: Did you like the AI video? I loved the AI video.

Svea: Did

Rick: you see it coming? No. Were you surprised?

Svea: I had no idea that was happening.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: That was really fun.

Yeah. I don't even know how you did that. That was pretty cool.

Rick: It just, with AI, you just upload the photo and say, "This is what I want it to say," and then it spits it out.

Svea: That's crazy. How

Rick: cool is that?

Svea: That's crazy.

Rick: Yeah. It's amazing. It's amazing, uh, what's available to us now. But yeah,

Svea: that is- So between, between the video of the original pastor- Mm-hmm

of this church- Yeah ... and the incredible new embellishment we have in the auditorium with the Jesus Saves sign that- Yeah.

Rick: Shout out to Pastor Ian for making that a reality. That was a task. , That was a project on his hands that he had to figure out.

It's hard to tell. I'm hearing conflicting stories- Um- ... that either the original sign that was on top of the building decades ago, it's either, it either still exists, or that was destroyed, and it's a replica that exists now.

Svea: Oh.

Rick: But whether it is the original or a replica, that exists on top of a Christian radio station outside of town.

Oh. And I tried to get it. We wanted it. I want it back. It's just not possible.

Svea: Ah.

Rick: When you are an ideas guy, sometimes you need people to tell you no. And so I just, it's just not a, it just doesn't work. But anyway, I would've loved to have taken that original and mounted it in s- on the back wall in the, in our sanctuary.

Svea: So for anyone who's not clear, this was- Yeah ... this massive Jesus saves sign- Yeah ... that was on top of the first Baptist church when it was downtown.

Rick: When it was downtown, in a building that doesn't exist anymore, I don't think. I

Svea: think it's kind of near where the Baldwin building

Rick: is now. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. I, anyway, just a cool piece of our history, and I love it. One of the re- I love that photo. I keep it on my phone. I love, I, I, there's so much about it that it just, that way back when, this church was like, "This is what we are about. This is, this is what we need. This is what the world needs. This is what you need.

This is what we wanna share with you." I love that. I absolutely love that. I, I don't know that I've ... I try to read as much of our history as I can, try to find all kinds of nuggets that I can. Like, it was fun to find that photo of Reverend Westcott from 1857, the original founding pastor of this church.

But there's nothing that has spoken to me like that photo has. Mm-hmm. It just, ugh, it grabs ahold of me.

Svea: So when you think about Reverend Westcott-

...

Svea: And the dreams he must have had for- Yeah ... this new church, and then you think about the people who designed that sign and put the big Jesus sign- saves sign up- Mm-hmm

on their church. What kind of things do you think were going through their minds, and, and do you feel any, any kinship with them?

Rick: I do. And, without a doubt there would be things that we wouldn't see eye to eye on, because we're all in some ways shaped by the culture and the time period that we, that we've lived in, the experiences that we've had, and yet we are bound together by something profound.

And I think that I could relate to them in this. I think they could relate to me. I think they could relate to us, is that we are gripped by something that is profound, and it is bigger than ourselves, and it is centered in who Jesus is and what he's accomplished and what he gives us, and we want the world to know.

Mm-hmm. We just want people to know, and that is a common thread that runs through everything in the history of our church. When you go back and read old documents that are 100 years old or more from our church, you're, you'll find that. And so it's not about location. It's not about music styles.

It's not about programming or scheduling or anything like that. It... That is it. That's the thing, uh, that unites us all together. That's what unites us with all the other believers in town today. That's what unites us with Christians around the world and throughout history. And I love it, and we're one of those churches with a longer history that we get to see how it's traced out- Mm-hmm

over the generations in, in a way that a newer church doesn't yet get to see, but one day will.

Svea: So let's talk a little bit about that.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: Like, as a church staff- Mm-hmm ... we've long and somewhat frequently talked about size dynamics- Mm-hmm ... and how the size of our church it just has some parameters that come along with it.

It has lots of advantages of- Mm-hmm ... we have an incredible amount of resources- That's right ... a large team- That's right ... many opportunities to to maybe be able to reach parts of the community that a very small church might not have the same opportunities. It also comes with some constraints, too.

That's right. We can't possibly know every single person that calls this church their home.

Rick: Every size that a church is, whether it's zero to 50, 50 to 150, 150 to 350, 400, 400 to 700, up to above 1,000, 2,000, every, every single church, whatever that size kind of category it's in, there are dynamics at play, and there are dynamics that come with advantages and disadvantages for every church size.

And so our task is just to recognize, well, what are the dynamics, and what's needed? What's appropriate? What's inappropriate? What are the needs? What are the expectations? What advantages do we have? What disadvantages do we have? And just to respond with wisdom to all of those things. Mm-hmm.

Svea: But you- Mm-hmm

for this message, you pulled out kind of a different aspect of the uniqueness of our church. Age

Rick: dynamics.

Svea: And, yeah, age.

Rick: And I have not read anybody- Uh-uh ... uh, I haven't read any articles, I haven't read any books, I have never listened to a podcast where anybody talks about this, and so I hope I'm not out to lunch.

I hope that I'm not just, out on a skinny branch. For the most of my life, especially my adult ministry career, I've been a part of younger churches. But coming here, I've experienced the weight of history in a way that I haven't experienced when being a part of, of younger churches, and it's got me thinking about age dynamics.

Um, the majority of the pastors a- and leaders who I look to they pastor churches that are much younger than ours- Mm ... so they're just not in a position to talk about it from experience. And so that idea of age dynamic came out of some of the experiences I've had since I've been here, and then, uh, getting to go to England and be around some, some churches that are much, much older.

Some

Svea: very much older.

Rick: Like, I thought our church was old- Uh-huh ... and then you go to St. Aldates, which this booming, thriving, exciting church, 900 years old.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah, that's hard to wrap your mind around.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. But let's just think through a little bit- Mm-hmm ... about what the, the age dynamics might be at play.

For example, if a church is brand new, if- Mm-hmm ... if they're on their first pastor, if you're just fresh from being a church plant- ... everything is untried, everything is new. You're never gonna hear someone say, that's just not the way we do it around here," Yeah ... 'cause there's no precedent.

Rick: There is no history-

Svea: Uh-huh ...

Rick: that is exerting influence on the present-

...

Rick: Because there's not really a past. Everything is brand new, yeah.

Svea: But for a church that has been around for- Mm-hmm ... multiple generations-

Rick: That's right. There's a stack of experiences that go back as old as that church is, and for individual people, there's a stack of experiences that go back how long they've been at that church.

And something that can calcify around each of those individual experiences is the, Preferences that we have.

So our preferences can calcify around particular experiences. We're like, "I like this. I didn't like that." And then it is just easy for human beings to become loyal to our preferences over our purpose, and it happens to us without even realizing it.

Svea: Now, I don't think you'd say that this is either a good thing or a bad thing, it just is-

Rick: It's just a vulnerability ... a thing and- It's a, it's just a, it's an inescapable reality. It's true for businesses. It's true for churches. It's true for families. It's true for nonprofits. The longer history you have, the more longevity that comes with your organization, the more likely this is.

And I've read, uh, biographies of CEOs who've gone into historic businesses, and they recognize that, uh, there are pivots that need to be enacted. There, there are changes, uh, that, that need to come, and the old guard says, "We've never done it that way- Mm ... before." And so they have to navigate that.

And then sometimes there are CEOs that come in, and the old guard says, "That's not our way." The CEO does it anyway and then discovers, oh, there's a reason that exists. So the weight of history and the influence that's there, it can be helpful- Or it can be not helpful, and it requires wisdom from those of, for those of us who are here now to recognize how that's going so we can harness all the good things.

We can recognize in ways where there's potential for it being less helpful- Mm-hmm ... and respond with intentionality, and that's really the key word, to be intentional.

Svea: I was saying to you before- Mm-hmm ... we started recording that someone just came across a picture of some new members and s- found the year that my husband Steve and I became members of the church 20 years ago.

Mm. And, uh, and I just had to laugh at how young we looked 20 years ago.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And I think, I've lived so much life in this church. Yeah. And there is a beauty to a church that's been around- Mm-hmm ... even longer than the people have in that opportunity that there is for people to literally grow up-

In a church. Mm-hmm. And we have people here like that, that- Oh, yeah ... that have attended this church since they were children- Yeah ... and lived their whole life with this as their church home, and I think there's just some incredible beauty to that.

To, uh- Mm-hmm ... to have that kind of story and stability and history, and the opportunity for people to know each other through every phase- It's fantastic

of their life.

Rick: It's absolutely fantastic.

Svea: Just a, there's a richness

Rick: there. Yeah. Yeah. And so having that longevity, having that history, it is always a gift. It is a good thing. And like we said this weekend, the only way that you can have that is if there are more good things that have happened in your history than you can count- Mm

or possibly be aware of. And so embrace it, cherish it, and move forward with intentionality.

Svea: So a line you said in there- Mm-hmm ... is that we have to balance a long history, because that can either become a foundation or a landlord.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Yeah. And I thought those were descriptive ways of quickly- Was that helpful?

realizing, yeah, yeah. It's something that you're- It's either something we're building on- Yeah ... or it's something that can become a ruler.

Rick: Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: That's right.

Svea: How do we discern-

...

Svea: What aspects of our history are a foundation for us, and what could be a potential landlord?

Rick: Well, our history should inform us. But it doesn't necessarily govern us. There's, th- we should be learning, right? We should be learning, we should be learning from our past. , , I've used this word already a couple of times, and I might sound like a broken record on this episode.

Uh, intentionality is important. It's, and it begins with just understanding who you are. And when you know who you are, you know who you're becoming, you understand who your, w- what your purpose is, it provides lots of clarity for how to move forward. We don't wanna live in such a way that we're falling into one of two ditches.

You know my favorite expression. You know, for every mile of road, there's two ditches, and I think there are two ditches for, for churches with longevity. One is to get into the ditch of nostalgia.

And the other is the ditch of amnesia, right? Mm. Nostalgia is you don't wanna be so focused on the past that it dictates everything you do, but you also don't wanna forget the lessons and the richness and, all the good things that come with your history.

That would be amnesia. Instead, we want to move forward cherishing the past, holding onto it, recognizing the good things and the bad things. And in every organization, especially churches too, there are good things and bad things in our past, but we're guided by Christ and who we are in Him and who we're becoming and the purpose that He's given us.

Svea: How might we be able to detect if we're f- slipping into either of those ditches?

Rick: Well, what do you think? You've been around here a long time. Yeah. And I don't wanna put you in an awkward position where you have to tell an uncomfortable story, but- ... but as you're processing this, what are some thoughts that, that come to your mind?

Svea: Yeah. I have nostalgia- ... for different chapters-

Rick: Yeah ...

Svea: of being here. I've... There are certain Bible studies that I was a part of- Mm-hmm ... in, in prior chapters- Yeah ... that were deeply formative for me- Yeah ... in my spiritual life, and, I love reminiscing about that and thinking of the things that I learned there.

And yet, I also know in my mind I could never recreate that experience now. Even if we could go back to the same curriculum and meet in the same room- Mm-hmm ... it would still feel different because it would be a different mix of people. Totally. Um, we're in a different time in our culture and society.

I'm in a different place in my spiritual life.

Rick: You're the same person but a different person.

Svea: Yeah. And so I think for me, it's- ... it's remembering the good things- Mm-hmm ... that have happened here and being grateful for them- Yeah ... being thankful for the different programs we've had, the different relationships that I've experienced here.

And, uh, and remembering that fondly with gratitude- ... but also almost appropriately grieving-

Rick: Mm-hmm ...

Svea: ... what is unlikely to ever be repeated.

Rick: Sure.

Svea: Kind of in the same way that we reflect back on just happy memories from the past.

Rick: Yeah, absolutely. And so I think there's an analogy here that's helpful for us.

There are things that we wanna remember, and we wanna hold onto, and we wanna cherish, but we're not trying to recreate them. , What we're trying to do is to fulfill our purpose. Mm-hmm. And if we fulfill our purpose, and , we honor that, we will have , the essence of those same experiences but what they would look like today.

I've talked about this a l- a lot, that Heather and I are basically empty nesters, and our son has moved out to college. Our daughter lives in the basement, but we don't see her a lot. I mean, she's busy. She's working final semester of nursing school. It's a pretty exciting time. We look back with fondness at all kinds of memories from when , they were younger, and I cherish those, but- Why would it say about me as a dad, what would it say about, uh, Heather and me as, as leaders in our home if we tried to mimic and recreate experiences from when our kids were in elementary school- Mm-hmm

or preschool or whate- that, that would just be, that would be weird. Mm-hmm. We gotta recognize the growth, the maturity, where we are, and take that same love, that same devotion, that same purpose of our goal wasn't to raise kids. Our goal's, our goal was always to raise adults. Yeah. That, that purpose is there, and we're applying it right now.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Yesterday my son had to endure a little resilience-making- oh, no ... project. I'll, I'll, I'll call it like that. Okay. So it's, uh, had to, had to take the, the truck to the, to a mechanic, and he dropped it off at the mechanic, and they have to replace something. It'll be available in a day or two.

Uber does not exist- No ... in his little town- ... up north in Minnesota. And, uh, there w- his roommate was in class and wasn't able to pick him up, so he had to walk a mile and a half- Mm ... uh, back to campus. And I was so proud of him because he didn't, like, call and complain. He didn't throw himself a little pity party.

He just popped in his headphones and listened to a book and walked back to school- Mm-hmm ... and did class. And I was just like, I'm so proud of him, right? And I love to see the man who he is and the man he's becoming. But what a horrible dad I would be-

...

Rick: If I tried to recreate some of my favorite moments- Yeah

from when he was, like, five years old.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Last night I was, Heather and I were on a walk, I was reminiscing about a season from when Jack was a little guy, like six years old, six or seven years old, and we were at karate, and his karate instructor was trying to teach their little class about different muscles, and some muscles are strong, and you can't use them for a long time, and then other muscles allow you to use them for a really long time.

Like, you can run for, you can run for a really long time, but he said, "You can't do, you can't do pushups for 30 minutes. No one can do 30 minutes of pushups." And my and my son goes, "My dad can." And he turned around and gave me a thumbs up. Oh. I was just like, oh, what... I, I was just telling Heather- That's awesome

I r- I love that time where he had all of these false notions about how great I was. And when, when did, when did reality hit- Yeah ... his little brain- Yeah. ... to understand exactly who I am and who I'm not. But I love that. But, like, what a horrible job I would be doing as a dad if I tried to recreate that-

Svea: Yeah

Rick: instead of cherish that. And we're moving forward, same love, same devotion, same purpose, but how it fits right now. Does that make sense?

Svea: It does. And yet, the stories you're telling are kind of looking at development and- Yeah ... of course, we wouldn't wanna treat an adult child like a child child.

Yeah, that's

Rick: right.

Svea: I've loved being part of this church- Mm-hmm ... in the John Stear era- Mm-hmm ... of this church. I've loved being part of this church in the Rick Henderson era of this church. But they're two different churches. I mean, it's all Autumn Ridge, and it's-

Rick: Mm-hmm ...

Svea: it's been a, uh, a beautiful thing to be part of this church in different chapters.

But for me, it's been a lot of the parallel experience of having been married twice. You know? Mm-hmm. I think most people know my first husband passed away from cancer- Mm-hmm ... uh, right before he turned 30. And when Steve and I married, there was just that part of me that thought, "Okay, I'm married again."

"I've regained what I lost in a first marriage, and I'm, I'm, I've got a husband again. I'm married- Mm-hmm ... and this is the way it's gonna play out." And it didn't take very many weeks of marriage to realize that, that, uh, marriage is very unique depending on who you're married to. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And, and, uh, and the way that Steve and I interacted was different than the way that John and I interacted.

Uh-huh. And that things were not going well when I had certain expectations of Steve to do things in the way that John did. Yeah. And it took some time.

Rick: John, your first husband.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Not John Stear-

Svea: Correct ...

Rick: the previous pastor.

Svea: Correct. Yes.

Rick: My- Just for people out there who are half listening 'cause they're distracted.

Svea: Yeah. Good clarification. Um, and it took some time to just- Yeah ... let go of... That- Hmm ... first marriage was a wonderful marriage- Mm-hmm ... and I was grateful for that, but that's over and gone, and I can appreciate it, but also have to grieve it and accept where we are now in this chapter so that I can appreciate the beauty and goodness in this chapter.

Rick: I appreciate that. I think that's, I think that's a helpful analogy that I know people can quickly grasp. But I wanna ask what might sound like a, a weird question, so hang with me- Okay ... and help me if I ask it in an obtuse way. Okay. All right. Would- I don't remember how old you were when you, when you got married to Steve, but so, like, two or three years before that, with that version of Svea, if she had a conversation with you today, say, "You are different, but it's good."

Like, it's not just that your husband is different, it's there's, there's kind of a, an authentic and yet different version of you.

Svea: Yeah. I mean, Steve and I are, are about to celebrate our 20th anniversary next week and I can't wait to even just intentionally reflect- Mm ... on how different we are now 20 years later.

Yeah,

Rick: yeah.

Svea: Um, so yeah, you're right. Even though now I've been married to the same person- Mm-hmm ... for two decades, I am a very different person- Mm-hmm ... than I was two decades ago.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Yeah, life changes- Yeah ... and, and we roll with it. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, how much more should we expect the church to be doing that with the- Certainly

size dynamic- Yeah ... that we have?

Rick: And the age dynamic, yeah. And so it is, it's not exactly apples to apples, but the analogy does help, and we get to build on different eras. We get to build on different- Mm-hmm ... seasons, and perhaps there is something that happened 25 years ago that set us up for what we're able to do today.

And what we're doing today is setting up the people come after us. I, I hope it doesn't sound weird, but every day I think about the pastor who's going to occupy this position- Mm ... after me, and I'm always asking myself, "Is what I'm doing today, and the, kind of the ruts that we're creating, and the habits, and the rhythms, and all of that-" Is it setting up that next pastor and that next team for success, or am I doing anything that's gonna act like a, like a, more of a landlord than a foundation?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is just our leg of the race, and we will... If Jesus doesn't come back, soon, we will pass the baton off to someone else eventually. Every pastor who's come before me has passed the baton off, whether he wanted to or not. Mm-hmm. We will pass the baton to leaders who come behind us, and are we setting them s- them up for success-

Svea: Mm-hmm

Rick: or not? And so I, I think about that literally every day.

Svea: So speaking of the race- Yeah ... you anchored the message in one of my favorite passages- Mm ... from Hebrews- Mm ... in Hebrews 12, and this idea that, you know, we are running a race- Mm ... comes l- a little bit differently in the, in the passage, but that we're also surrounded by this cloud of witnesses- Mm-hmm

the people who had come before us. Yeah. And so we want to, as we're running this race, throw off all of the things that hinder us.

Rick: Mm. This is a challenging one-

Svea: Yeah ...

Rick: because there are, there's sin that hinders, and it's very clear in the passage, but it's everything that hinders. And that's a category of things that aren't morally wrong.

That's a category of things that aren't sin. You haven't violated any- anything about rightness or wrongness by doing these things, and yet you could hold on to things that hinder you as a church, that keep you from running the race with perseverance as Jesus intends.

Svea: Can you give some examples of what that could be?

Rick: Yeah. Imagine this, this guy... i, I'm sorry, this cracks me up a little bit. But there was, there was a time in, in church history where churches used to, used to produce cassette tapes-

Svea: Oh,

Rick: yeah ... of sermons and pass them out. Yeah. Like imagine if you ha- And there were some churches that had tremendous success.

There were some churches that had so much success that they had a nationwide mailing list, and they were producing thousands of cassette tapes every week- ... and mailing them across the country. Imagine if a church gets so locked into that, that they're still trying to do that now. It's it's so dumb it's laughable, right?

Because it's obvious how technology has shifted and how people consume information, how they access that has changed. And yet, this is true for churches, it's true for any organization of people it's true for, it's true for businesses, especially if you have age and longevity, to become locked in on the way you used to do something instead of why you do it.

And so if you understand why you do it, then you pivot to whatever the appropriate medium is. You pivot to whatever is the most helpful way for people to engage. I thought about telling this story in the sermon, I just didn't, I just didn't have time. When I was, uh, living in northern California, a youth pastor at a church out there, there's a guy in the church who was an executive for something called the Grass Valley Group.

And I wouldn't expect anybody to know who the Grass Valley Group is. They don't exist anymore. But they were big time in the television and, and movie industry. And they were pioneers and industry leaders in analog technology. Um, so I was talking to this guy who was an executive for the company, and he said that they invented the technology that imposes the first down line on when you're watching a football game- Mm-hmm

and all of a sudden there's this line that shows up. It says the running back has to get to that line. Okay. Uh, just kinda superimposes it. And at that time, the world had not shifted to digital yet. They thought digital was a fad, and so they just kind of produced this technology and put it on the shelf and did nothing with it.

And they doubled down on analog technology instead of embracing digital technology. Mm-hmm. And another company ended up developing it too, and they cashed in on all the millions of dollars to be made, and that company's thriving, and now the Grass Valley Group doesn't exist anymore.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: And so that's an example.

, It's not a church example, it's not a religious example, it's just peop- it's an insight into people, that we get locked in on how Instead of why.

The why is the most important.

Svea: That feels like a really helpful filter-

Rick: I hope so ...

Svea: as we're trying to- Yeah ... evaluate things. Yeah. If it's not about, , what we're doing, but- Mm-hmm

why we're doing it. Yeah. And so is the why still being accomplished in the methods that we're using? Yeah.

Rick: And I've heard people say, like, it takes about five whys to get down to when you finally are honest and kinda ... You're able to dig down through all the information to get what the why actually is.

Mm. You just gotta keep asking why over and over and over again. And it's not just asking the, the why we're doing that. Well, someone gives a reason. Okay, where does that come from? Why do we adopt that as the reason? How are we seeing that play? I mean, you gotta really, really dig in. And again, Svea, I know that I sound like a broken record, but that requires being intentional.

You have to be rigorously honest with yourself and each other, and you have to have the emotional resilience to say, it is good and healthy and okay to say goodbye to cherished methodologies- Mm ... that just don't help us in the way that they used to. Mm-hmm. From what I've read and, and learned from people who just g- gleaned a lot of insight on the healthiest, most effective churches who stay aligned with their purpose, they have a tendency to sunset ministries.

They have a tendency to get rid of programs when it still looks effective and pivot to the next thing, because it won't be as obvious to everybody else. It just won't be obvious to the general public that it's time to pivot until it's too late. Mm. And if you wait until it's too late, then you gotta regenerate momentum and trust all over again.

It, it's- Sure ... tense, these changes-

Svea: So it takes a lot of- Yeah ... wisdom- Yeah ... to know when it's time to just say goodbye to something- Man ... and celebrate it- Yeah ... and then grieve- That's right ... this chapter is done, and- That's right ... and we're gonna- Yeah ... try to accomplish the same goals- Mm-hmm ... in a more effective method.

Rick: Correct.

Svea: Yeah. But it also, I would say, probably takes a lot of wisdom in evaluating what do we try next?

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: You know, there's, there are opportunities that are out there right now that seem both exciting but could be fraught with some consequences we don't k- yet know. I, I was just listening to a podcast- Mm-hmm

the other day on AI in ministry. Yeah. And, uh, and the guy was talking about this church that had downloaded the entire record of everything the pastor had ever written- Mm-hmm ... and then created a pastor chat feature- Mm-hmm ... on their website so that people could send questions and have a chat with what, in, a- at least approximated- Mm-hmm

sounded like their pastor. Yeah. And they were, they were encouraging people to use this so that if you're up in the middle of the night, and you are just struggling with something or in a crisis, you know, here's your way to get access to the pastor at 3:00 AM.

Rick: Yeah,

Svea: no. Like, that sounds a little, a little off, a little scary.

There's

Rick: a sales rep for a company that sells that, that, tried to talk us into that, and I- Oh, for

Svea: real?

Rick: I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm not-

Svea: Like, this isn't just a crazy idea? It's, it's well- This

Rick: is something you- It's well-intended. Wow. No, there's, you know, there's a company that'll do this for you. Oh my goodness.

At least one company that'll do this for you. I'm not comfortable with that. Yeah. And I've got a number of reasons why I'm not comfortable with that, and why we're just not gonna do it, and yet I can also recognize the good intention. And so this is part of wisdom. It's, there's a reason that we have expressions like, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Mm-hmm. Intention is not enough. Impact also has to be evaluated. Let me kind of backpedal a little bit and, or at least zoom out enough to say this. When a church knows who they are and who they're becoming and what their purpose is, they are free to fail.

Because you can make choices with the best wisdom, with the best information that you have available to you, and it's aligned with your purpose and what you're trying to do, and you might just discover, oh, that just wasn't as helpful as we thought it would be.

Mm. Mm-hmm. And that's okay. What's not okay is to not learn from that.

Svea: For sure.

Rick: There's a pastor I really like, , and , he said, "Listen, if you're not failing, you're not trying."

"

Rick: And if you keep failing, you're not learning."

Svea: You know, in your, your wonderful phrase that you use about the, you know, every mile of road has two miles of ditches.

That's

Rick: right.

Svea: It does seem like this is an example where there's a ditch of we are stuck in methods that- Mm-hmm ... maybe have become less effective. Mm-hmm. And then there's a ditch on running after something impulsively-

Rick: Yeah ...

Svea: and, uh, and not yet having the, uh, the tried and tested methods to see is this going to be an effective approach.

Rick: So let me ask you a question. This question just, this is a question I've been wrestling with privately. We might have talked about it with some staff, but I'd like to throw it out for our church to think about. And anybody who's listening to this, I want you to ask this question to people who you go to church with.

Mm-hmm. Which kind of church would you rather us be? A church that clings to something that we know is mediocre, or we risk failing at something that has the potential to be much more successful? Mm-hmm. We cling to something that we know is medioc- Like, I would rather fail at something that has potential than be successful at something that's mediocre.

Svea: Mm-hmm. Well,

Rick: which kind of church do we wanna be? I think a church that takes Hebrews 12 seriously says, "You know what? I don't think, I don't think that Jesus died and resurrected and gave us His Spirit and is empowering us to do things so that we can become experts at mediocrity."

Svea: Mm,

Rick: and I don't wanna be manipulative.

I really don't. But I think that we have been given so much in Christ that we have everything we need to fail with confidence and dust ourselves off and learn and keep trying again.

Svea: So as we think about this long history that we have- ... how do we honor the history that's here, honor the people who have been part of this church for decades, for even their whole life, uh, while still making room for people that are brand new?

Rick: We refuse to idolize new and young.

Svea: Hmm. Say more.

Rick: We live in a world that has made idols out of new things and youth. We cherish youth, but we don't elevate it as the be all and, and an, and end all, right? Th- there's a, there's a verse in Proverbs that I love, and I love reading it with a, with an older crowd, and they start snickering at me in the beginning.

Like, "How would you even read this?" And then they're like, "Ah, I get where you're coming from," and we celebrate it. But the proverb essentially says this: Gray hair is the, uh, splendor of the old, and that strength is the glory of the young.

And I just am captivated by this idea of strength and splendor.

Mm. And we need both.

And more traditional cultures do a better job of honoring Those who have worn some tread off their tires, have more life experience. They've hard-won wisdom over the years. It's in big things and it's in little things. It's in leadership that we have people with experience and we have people without experience.

Mm-hmm. We have old and we have young. Mm-hmm. We have everybody in between. Who you see on the platform speaking, singing, playing. It's a mixture. It's you see it in in, in the relationships that are formed in student ministry and kids ministry. We don't try to sequester old people off into one corner and young people off into another corner in small groups.

We really love it when, when people are mixed together because we need each other. Mm-hmm. The old need the young, the young need the old, everybody in between. So those are just, just riffing. Those are some of the-

Svea: Mm-hmm ...

Rick: some of the things that, that come to mind. Um- I like it ... that people who are older are willing to tolerate things that are a little bit faster and louder than what they would prefer.

The people who are younger are willing to pause and slow down and consider things that, uh, that are offered to them from those who are older. Uh, we have patience with one another. Mm-hmm. Probably my favorite definition of patience is choosing to go at another person's speed. Mm-hmm. And that means sometimes slower, that means sometimes faster.

But it's all governed by knowing who you are, and because you know who you are, you know who you're becoming, you know your purpose, and so you're able to be intentional. You're not wobbly and easily influenced and bullied and dictated to by the moment, by circumstances.

And so that's the kind of church that we're trying to be.

Svea: All right, so last question for you. Mm-hmm. You had said that there's not a day that goes by that you don't think about the pastor that comes after you. Correct. And what are we doing today that's setting up this next chapter- Mm-hmm ... of the church, this next leg of the race?

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: What are the kind of things that you hope that we leave behind in this chapter as a gift to the next chapter?

Rick: A couple of things. One is a community of people who are enamored with Jesus and who understand the gospel and who understand just the, the beauty, the depth, the complexity, the awesomeness of the spiritual formation joy- Mm-hmm ... journey, right? And so that people that we're a church that we see over the horizon of the political moment.

That we see... we're a church full of people we see over the horizon of the current economic moment. We're able to see a, a, and have a vision of things that's much bigger than that, much kind of a, an eternal heavenly perspective. So I want, I want that. I wanna leave behind hopefully just a track record of a church that not only nourishes and cultivates healthy discipleship, spiritual formation, but knows how to be incredibly gracious and hospitable and loving to those who are deeply skeptical and curious.

And I also wanna leave behind financial health. I want the financial buckets to be full. Mm,

Svea: mm-hmm.

Rick: Because I, I don't want, I don't want whoever, uh, the next pastor is, the next team of leaders, the next congregation, to be hindered by unhelpful financial practices financial fragility. I do not want that for the next person.

Svea: So you, you say intentional is the key word-

Rick: It's

Svea: intentional ... about all this. And as you're saying these things- Mm-hmm ... I don't know if you were trying to cue this up or not but we are in a period of great intentionality in our financial health with launching this capital campaign. Mm-hmm. And we're in a period of great intentionality in our spiritual formation health as- Yeah

we're about to kick off an eight-week sermon series starting this coming weekend on the spiritual journey- That's right ... and the different stages- Mm ... that, uh, that are kind of a, a predictable path- Yeah ... that we each walk through as we're growing in our spiritual health. Mm-hmm. So I'm excited for this season of great intentionality and- It's, uh, it's kinda-

laying down some foundations here. There's

Rick: a lot of joy and excitement for us, and, and I believe that will be contagious for other people. We'll see.

Svea: Yeah. We'll see. Well, I'm excited to, to dive into this. Yeah. I can't wait for this coming series. And, uh, not only do we get the joy of walking through what I, I trust will be a great sermon series, next week we get to, uh, to release our podcast on video as well.

Rick: That's right, people will see us. But we won't get to see them.

Svea: No, that's not how video works.

Rick: That's not how it works. I wish it worked that way. Yeah. I don't know. But, uh, yeah, this is, this is fun times.

Svea: Well, we'll see you next week, literally.