Church is Messy

Church Is Messy, 08-26-2026 Ep148
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Svea: We're back with Church Is Messy. So good to be back in the podcast studio with you, Rick. Good morning. How you doing?

Rick: You know what? This feels really good. Yeah. I'm, I'm pumped to be doing this. I appreciated the break, but I also miss, uh, getting to record, 'cause I just love having these conversations, and I love the kinds of conversations that they spur with other people who- listen in, uh, with us. So we've been a bit on a summer break. It's not like we haven't been doing anything, we just haven't been doing this. Haven't been

Svea: down here podcasting, yeah.

Rick: So can we do a quick check-in?

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Give me some, uh, highs, lows and buffalos of your summer.

Svea: Oh, let's see. High definitely has been in recent weeks.

Mm-hmm. I've reconnected with a long-dormant part of myself, and I've begun flying again. , If people don't know, I, I was a professional pilot- Yes ... long before I was a pastor. That's super rad. And, uh, it was really fun. Great career. Not a career that was compatible when my husband died and I was a single mom.

Mm-hmm. So there were some life circumstances- Sure, makes sense ... that forced me to, to hang up my wings for a long, long time. Uh, and I just had started getting back into flying when I met Steve, and we blended our family, and I had to fly a suburban for a whil- quite a long time.

Rick: Not as cool.

Svea: Not quite as cool.

But this is just a chapter where it seems like it's, uh, something I can fit back in now that my kids are grown and launched and, and-

Rick: Listen, I know I'm not the only one, but I'm just kinda like hoping that one day there's gonna be an invitation to, to go fly.

Svea: Oh, count on it.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: Let's do it. All right.

That would be, uh- All right ... great fun. So-

Rick: So that's a, that's a great update- That's

Svea: been good ...

Rick: from your, from your summer. You're, you're flying.

Svea: Yeah, it's a fun way to spend my day off.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't do anything particularly cool. I got to hang out with, uh, my brother a little bit. That was always, that was fun.

Did a little, camping. But just a lot of like stuff here. I guess a big update is, , my son moved out and- Mm ... went to college, and so it is- Mm-hmm, that's a big milestone ... m- much quieter. Yeah. Much, much quieter. It's just, it's good. It's weird. Heather and I are trying to figure out our, our new rhythm and our new discretionary time allotment.

And-

Svea: Yeah ...

Rick: yeah, it's just-

Svea: Isn't it amazing what a difference- Yeah ... it makes when one kid is out of the house?

Rick: Yeah, yeah.

Svea: It's, it's jarring-

Rick: And our- ...

Svea: initially ...

Rick: and our daughter is gone a lot. She's working a lot, and she's gonna be this semester is her last semester of nursing school, and she's gonna be working in cardiac surgery at Mayo as part of her capstone, and so-

Speaker 3: Very cool

Rick: yeah, we'll just, uh, she'll be a blur, in our, in our lives over the next several months. So I haven't done this yet, but I signed up for something that has been a dream.

Speaker 3: Yeah?

Svea: What's that?

Rick: And I thought that it was way inaccessible, like way beyond my price range, and then I discovered, holy cow, this is actually- What are you gonna do?

very do- I'm going on an elk hunt. In November of 2027.

Svea: Oh, wow.

Rick: That's right. I'm doing it.

Svea: Amazing. I can't

wait.

Rick: Elk- Well, actually, I can wait, but ... elk

Svea: is delicious.

Rick: I hope that I get to share the bounty with friends and family.

Svea: Oh, how about this? I'll take you flying, and then we'll come back for an elk dinner.

Rick: Let's do it. Yes. Yes, yes.

Svea: This sounds like a very good day.

Rick: I asked Heather, I said, "If Faia asks us to go flying, are you gonna say yes?" And she was like, "I, mm-mm, I don't think so." Oh- She gets a little- ... come

Svea: on,

Rick: Heather ... she gets a little, she gets a little motion sick. Oh.

Svea: Well, that's fair.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: We are totally in the weeds here right now. How are we gonna get this back into some actual, uh, theological discussion?

Rick: I don't know. Let's just- let's dive in. We kicked off a new series.

Svea: We did.

Rick: This, this weekend. We're calling it The End, question mark, but we're talking about end times stuff.

We're gonna talk about, uh, heaven. We've got four weeks to try to cover a massive topic, and, , we'll do our best with the time we have, and hopefully, the goal is that it is helpful and hopeful for people who are here with us.

Svea: Yeah. So interestingly- Mm-hmm ... I heard a couple of people say afterwards that when they saw the graphic come up with The End- Yeah

and the graphic looks a little ominous, and they realized that the series was gonna be talking about the end times, their stomach kinda dropped a little bit. Mm-hmm. I mean, I don't think they blew chunks, but- ... they were getting a little bit anxious. They were

Rick: queasy. They- They

Svea: were feeling-

Rick: It didn't feel great.

And- I wonder... Okay, that's helpful to hear. I wonder what was behind that a little bit. Did they share that with you?

Svea: You know, I think some of it was similar to even my own background with with someone in my family that has been almost obsessed with end times thinking. Mm-hmm. With predictions of- Mm

you know, when is the end, and- Mm ... is the rapture gonna happen, and are you ready for it, and, and kind of this pressure and this fear.

Rick: Hey, fun fact, everyone who's ever made a prediction has been wrong. So, like, maybe we shouldn't. Like, maybe we should just take

Svea: the- The odds of being wrong- ...

Rick: Bible ser- ...

Svea: at this point are 100%

yeah,

Rick: maybe we should just take the Bible seriously. Nobody knows. Yeah. But I get it. It, for some reason, there's this pull. The- there's this pull to to think about it, obsess on it, predict, become hyper-focused, and I think it- obviously, I think it's worth thinking about. And I hope that we did a good job of beginning to lay a framework for why it's important and how to think about it in a way that's incredibly practical- Mm-hmm

and just kind of unlocks good stuff in our life every day.

Svea: Yeah. I love that you brought in John Stier's his quote- Yeah ... his, his encouragement to us- Isn't that good? ... to not be thinking about the second coming as something as for prediction- Yeah. I- ... but for application ...

Rick: I feel so spoiled to, at times, to b- to be the pastor here.

So John Stier, he would... Well, he's British, and so he would go back to England, but there was a time, I believe that that quote came out of a time that he went back took some weeks off during the summer, and went to Oxford, and spent his time really studying the end times and the return of Christ and just trying to understand what is the whole point of this, and trying to come to a, a clear understanding for him- himself.

And that's cool. I got to go do a similar thing last year in Oxford. And that line is something that he wrote down as a result of all of that time of study- Mm ... that the return of Christ is not for speculation. It's for application. And I just think what a beautiful summary of what I think the Apostle Paul was saying to the Thessalonian church.

And to us.

Svea: Yeah. Good stuff.

So I think there may have been some people that were kind of surprised that rather than starting off the series with- Mm-hmm ... predictions and times and charts and- Yeah ... analysis of- Mm-hmm ... of really weird cryptic verses- Yeah ... that instead you went in the direction of community and character.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. That's a ... I'm sure that felt like a left turn to people. Like, wait a second, you're using the return of Jesus for, like, a small group message? Is this right?

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Yeah. 'Cause so can you, uh, pull the curtain back a little bit on that?

Rick: Just, okay, listen, no one understands the Bible perfectly, but I think we're all doing our best to understand it as best we can and then align with it, and I'm just doing my best to understand it.

I love ... I'm a pastor. I love people who think like pastors or who care about pastors and are trying to help pastors pastor better, and Paul was clearly that guy.

Speaker 3: Mm.

Rick: And so he is ... He's writing to this church, real life people who are living everyday lives, and they were stressed out and some afraid about this subject and these questions 'cause some of them had been convinced.

Could you imagine? They were convinced that Jesus had returned and left them behind.

Svea: Yeah, that'd be a bummer.

Rick: That would be ... Have you ever been left behind? Heather and I used to fly. When we were young and poor, Heather worked for Southwest Airlines. Oh. And so we got to fly standby for free. Uh-huh. And it was awesome.

And for whatever reason, we could always get a flight away from home, like leaving town, no problem. But getting it back to be back home- No ... on time, in time for work and all that kind of stuff, that was hard. Mm. I mean, there were plenty of times I watched f- planes just fly away- Oh ... without me, and I'm like, "Now I gotta figure out what to do."

But imagine just, like, seeing Jesus, taking- Yeah ... off without you. Nobody flies standby with Jesus. Right? I know it's, it's-

Svea: It's like you should put that on a T-shirt.

Rick: Yeah, that's a T-shirt. Nobody flies standby with Jesus. You got a first class ticket if you're in Christ. Don't worry about it. But anyway, so there's some, there's some anxiety about that, and Paul says, "Listen, we don't know."

This is what we do. We live awake. Okay? We, we see clearly, we're clear-minded, and we don't wanna be like folks who are not clear-eyed and clear-minded. And if we do that well, if we just kinda... Even if we do it mediocre, this is what's gonna happen. We're gonna be faithful people, we're gonna be loving people, we're gonna be thinking the right way, and we are going to be tuned to building each other up and encouraging each other, and being patient with each other, and refusing to pay back wrong for wrongs.

And we're gonna know how to interact with people who are off track and help them get back on track. And when we're off track, we're gonna have people who help us get back on track 'cause they have our backs and, and we're gonna be humble people, and we let people tell us when we're wrong. That's the whole point of thinking about the return of Jesus.

That blows my mind. Mm. But that's Paul's perspective, and so, I'm just trying to follow his lead on this one.

Svea: Yeah, yeah. Do you think, is that why there's the issue that people have when they think about this of wanting to predict things- Mm-hmm ... do you think it is that fear of being left behind, and that maybe focusing on that feels easier than doing everything you just said?

Rick: Well, there are, is a series of books called Left Behind.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And so- Oh, I read them

Svea: all ...

Rick: we'll get, um, we'll touch on that d- a tiny bit this coming week. But here's, let me just give you kind of a quick snapshot of history, of Christian history in this. And we'll try to cover it in a way that's helpful and not discouraging or judgmental- Okay.

I

Svea: like that ...

Rick: on, on s- on this weekend. Because I'll, I'll say, "This is what I think," and when I say what I think, then that means I disagree with anything that's not that. And so I have to disagree without being judgmental, and I'll do my best, right? So for the first, say, 300 years of Christian history, it was pretty much everybody believed something along the lines of what would be called historic premillennialism or chialism.

And it was just essentially one day Jesus is gonna return, and then that's when this thousand-year reign is gonna happen. Revelation talks about a, a, a thousand-year reign. And so history's just gonna end with the return of Christ, and then there's a thousand-year reign, and we're here with that.

After about around the year 300, a little bit before that, and so, like, Oregon would be a guy who's, who's prior to that, started to think, "I don't know. I think there's a lot of stuff in Revelation that's, that's symbolic and it's, it's teaching through profound symbolism in that maybe it's more of, There is a non-literal thousand-year reign.

We're in that right now. Jesus is king, and he is reigning, and we are waiting for his return. Mm-hmm. And then when he returns, he will, he will judge the living and the dead, and then those of us who have trusted in Christ will be with him forever and ever, not in some far off kinda space palace.

That's not what heaven is. It's heaven and earth coming together. Mm-hmm. And so that is the view that kinda became the majority of view for the majority of Christian history. So what I just described is amillennialism. Mm-hmm. And then that's my view.

And then around the Reformation, there's something called post-millennialism that, bubbled up to the surface, and people started holding onto that, and that's the view that that we are in this kind of reign of Christ, but things are gonna continue to get better and better, and the church is gonna have greater and greater prominence and positive influence in the world, and that will culminate with the return of Christ. And so the more we do that, the, we are expediting the return of Christ.

And so that is the view that is down beneath and in kinda like in the boiler room working behind the scenes in Christian nationalism. It's, "No, it's our job to have dominion and prominence and usher in tremendous influence of the gospel at the national level worked out through government.

Because if we do that, we can get Christ to return sooner." It's not my view, but that is a view that popped up after the Reformation. About 200 or so years ago, there's something called dispensationalism, and it was- it started in Scotland, and it- then it just spread like wildfire across the United States because a guy named Scofield believed in it and had a study Bible with notes in it that, that pastors could read, and there were a lot of people who just weren't educated and this was their only view.

And it's this it's this idea that a lot of the, a lot of the stuff that we read in Revelation are things that haven't happened yet, and we gotta decode what's gonna happen, and there's gonna be this great tribulation, and there's gonna be, like, a literal Armageddon, and there- and so Jesus is gonna return.

This is where the idea of a rapture came from. Didn't exist until, like, 200 or so years ago. Christians are gonna be called away. This Left Behind book series. Mm-hmm. And then there's gonna be this massive just chaos, and then this Antichrist is gonna, is gonna rise and take control, and then Jesus is gonna come back, and I guess we come back with him.

And then there's gonna be, all kinds of other stuff that happens, and then everything comes to an end. And I think a lot of American Christians, a lot of American Christians think that that view that I just described is the normal view and is the view that, that's just always been the case. It's incredibly new, and the age of something doesn't tell you whether or not it's true or not.

I just think we owe it to ourselves to know how long it's been around. Mm-hmm. And it's very, very new, and it's not necessarily a global view. It is, it's new and it's a minority view, but it was very, very common in the 1970s. And so it motivated a lot of people to share their faith, and a lot of people came to faith in Christ With this understanding that these things were imminent and were gonna happen.

Mm-hmm. And so there's a lot of residue of that. It's kind of, it's gone down a little bit. And so, like, all the books and the charts and the... Like, I remember as a kid, people coming to our church and preaching about, "Hey, this thing you read in Revelation, that's describing an Apache helicopter."

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Rick: You know?

It-

Speaker 3: Yeah ...

Rick: it is like this decoding madness. That's, I think, off the mark. Can I describe it like that? So the, we just did a quick synopsis that was unfair in its brevity and reductionism.

Svea: No, that was very helpful though.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: Yeah. I let you go, 'cause I was like, "No, this is good stuff." All right. So yeah, hopefully that is helpful.

A good orientation to- Mm-hmm ... kind of different schools of thought about the end times. The, uh, the theological term eschatology.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: I'm sure that word will come up a couple of times in this series.

Rick: And so if people are wondering, what is our church's official position? We don't have a posi- a, an official position other than we affirm that Jesus is gonna return, and it's our job to be prepared.

Svea: So as we're going forward through- Mm-hmm ... this series, again, the heart of this is not to decode the times. It's not to analyze, you know, "This is the- Mm-hmm ... representation of this- Mm-hmm ... and here's the identity of the Antichrist," and all of that. Yeah. It's not about prediction, but it is about preparation. Yes.

What are we doing now as individual followers of Jesus- Mm-hmm ... and community followers of Jesus- Mm-hmm ... to be prepared for whenever that day that He returns would be?

Rick: That's right. That's right.

Svea: So let's talk a little bit about like I said, you had brought the, the focus of- Mm-hmm ... this last weekend's message on community and character.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: And I thought that was really lovely. Okay. Um, you talked about community and this need that we have for building each other up. Mm-hmm. And that we can't do that from a distance. Mm. Much of building someone up is done in close proximity and in, in deep relationship with other people. And yet, after the message was over and you were talking a little bit on the, the, the hallway with me about, uh, some of the stuff that you didn't have a, have all of the- Yeah

time you wanted to, to address. Mm-hmm. You talked about how it's just a normal trap in churches to provide and program community for people that are easy and already kind of accessible in community. So for example, like family ministries for family or- That's right ... marriage ministries for the married people- Mm-hmm

or, or things like that.

Rick: If you're married and have kids, you have built-in community that goes with you everywhere you go. And if you are a person who you live near your family, even if you're not married, like you live near your, your parents, your siblings aunts, uncles, cousins, stuff like that, you've got built-in, you got built-in community.

And those are the most convenient people to do church for because they have a lot of their community needs already being filled and addressed by family. I think it, uh, convenient the longing for convenience and the value of convenience is deeper, more pervasive than we probably realize.

I know it's deeper, more pervasive in me than, than I realize. Mm. You know, I, Svea, I am, uh, I'm counting some calories every day now. I'm on this plan.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: I'm, and it is inconvenient. And I just recognized, I'm 48, I'm not drifting into health. I'm drifting away from health.

I gotta be super intentional about it. And so I got the app, and I'm punching in stuff, and, and I'm changing. I'm just noticing, like the whole world is built around me eating in a way that's convenient, and none of that is good for me.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Rick: And it's so, it's just, so individuals, we battle. We battle the just gravitational pull of convenience.

Churches battle the gravitational pull of con- of convenience. And I wanna give a, I wanna give a preface to this. I'm not saying that your church community is more important than your family. I will never say that. I will say this. The bonds you have with your brothers and sisters in Christ will last longer than the ones you have with your family.

Svea: Keep going.

Rick: No, I'm done. No, like in heaven, when heaven and earth comes together, and we are forever in the presence of Christ enjoying all of that, Heather's my sister, not my wife. Caroline is my sister, not my daughter.

Jack is my brother, not my son, right? We're not relating to each other the way that we relate now.

And so here's something just provocative. The kind of relationship that I have with Pastor Caleb is more enduring than the kind of relationship I have with my own children.

That framework, the nuclear family framework, is beautiful and good and designed by God, but it's temporary.

Being brothers and sisters in Christ is forever. Hmm. Right? And so I'm not saying your relationship with church are more important than your family. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that there's something that's missing in the consciousness of this kind of day-to-day American church- That we th- it's easy to treat church as something we engage on the framework of convenience, and even discard it when it gets in the way.

Mm-hmm. Instead of saying, "Oh my goodness, this is what's permanent, and I should live in a way right now like I believe that's true."

Speaker 3: That's

Rick: gonna affirm how we do

Svea: community. I can see that, 'cause it's... I think, you know, most of us have an attitude towards our- Yeah ... family as these are our permanent relationships.

Mm-hmm. Whereas, Mm-hmm ... friends and church relationships are almost even disposable. Yeah. You know, I may have a few people that I remain in touch with over the years- Mm-hmm ... and through different transitions and things, but, uh- Yeah ... but for the most part, we don't have that same hope of permanence with our Christian brothers and sisters.

And yet there is a permanence there.

Rick: Now, we've just got we've got that truth turned down so low that it's below a whisper.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And it's unfortunate.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And again, we're not saying make church more important than your family. We're just saying understand what these bonds are.

Elevate- Elevate- ...

Svea: the church relationships ...

Rick: that's right. That's right. And so I wanna use kind of an extreme example, but it's, it's every day. I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about a, a friend of mine. Not gonna quote who this person is, but this is the kind of story that could be the same story of a lot of other people.

It could just, uh, be, it could be the story of a widow or a widower. But I've got a friend and he's just like, "Listen, Rick, you know that I'm, that I'm gay. I've got same-sex attraction and I wanna follow Jesus. Like, I'm trying to follow Jesus with this." It's harder than anybody else who's trying to follow Jesus.

So maybe that's true, maybe that's not. But this is what he said. And I think, man, yeah, this is rough. Mm-hmm. He said, this is why it's so hard for me. So, there's the, the world, and they just want me to, to live this out, to just to go be with whoever I wanna be, and be with, and, and just sleep around with whoever I wanna sleep around with.

Or, I could, I'm just not attracted to women. It's just, I've tried, it's just not there. So I could pretend that I am attracted to somebody and get in, get into a marriage, but I'd be faking it." He said, "And then, or I could come to church, and there's a lot of people at church that just wanna treat me like I'm a dirty sinner."

"

Rick: And then there are other people at church that are like, 'Whoo, yeah, that's hard. Hope you figure it out.'"

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Rick: He's like, "So this is so hard." And I just thought, this friend of mine does not have a vision that there's even more options.

Does not have a vision of a better community. And why would he?

Because most churches don't have a vision of a better community.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Rick: A better community where it's like we don't just get together when it's programmed. We don't just do life together when our small group is on the schedule. Our lives are enmeshed, and I'm here for you, and you're here for me, and the lines are blurry, and it's messy, and that's good.

I've got a brother in Christ who wants to honor Christ with his body- ... and live for Christ. Does he have to be alone? What would keep us from saying, "Do you know what? You should live in the guest room of my house," or, "Every Friday night, you're coming over for dinner," or just something where I am bending my schedule to make a commitment to that dude-

Svea: Yeah

Rick: to where I... Listen, this is real, and this, these bonds are, are eternal.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And I-

Svea: And it's not all sacrifice-

Rick: Yeah ...

Svea: to do that. Yeah. I mean, the, there may be something- Mm-hmm ... that maybe a family gives up- ... in order to surrender something, to serve- Mm-hmm ... the needs of someone who's living a life like that, and yet, you know, the description of someone that is that committed to their own discipleship and to honoring Jesus- Mm-hmm

with the core sexuality part of themselves- Yeah ... has a lot to teach people about devotion to Jesus and dedication. There's a lot to be gained on, uh, both sides of that relationship.

Rick: Or what about somebody who's, you know, 52 and single, whether they're widowed or just they've chosen to be single, or relationships haven't worked out.

What does community and the church look like for them beyond just this is what's on the schedule? Like, I w- or what about somebody who's just, th- they're in the pit? They're really battling something, and it's hard. What about your, what about your friends? Their marriage is hanging on by a thread.

What does community look like then? Some- something more than just what's on the schedule. That's what I'm pushing us to think about. I'm not necessarily trying to tell anybody what to do other than let's just, let's push beyond convenience.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: And-

Svea: And maybe not reduce something to a program-

Rick: Yes

Svea: but more- Yes ... a way of relating to- Yes ... other people.

Rick: Yeah.

Yeah.

Svea: So what does it take for someone who hears that ideal and says, "Yeah, I want that," what are, what are just a couple of steps that someone could take to move a little bit closer to that direction of being that kind of community provider?

Rick: I would just say think about the people you're in a relationship with now. Think about the people you know. Think about the people in your circle. What would it mean, what would it mean to, To turn down the value of convenience and turn up the commitment to build each other up and encourage each other.

Just what do they need? And then, like, where are the governors? Where are, where are the things where you're like, "Nope, I'm not doing that. That's too inconvenient or..." And I'm ju- I'm not asking anybody to break their, break their back. I'm just saying, but where, where are we limiting ourselves perhaps in the way that Jesus would say,

"I'm calling you to something better. Would you trust me enough- ... to step beyond your self-imposed limits, to look different than typical American culture?" And I'm not dissing America, but I'm just saying if you live as citizens of the kingdom, it should not be identical to-

...

Rick: The broader culture we live in, whether we're living in America, Canada, Mexico, Uganda, Australia, wherever it might be that the way that we're engaging each other and doing relationships should really be defined by and saturated by the way of the kingdom.

And so I'm just saying, let's just kinda, let's lean into that and, and let's take that more seriously, and it probably begins with small steps. Sometimes some big steps, but it, it's gonna probably be just be let's just start making some tweaks and adjustments to move in that direction.

Svea: Mm. I'd love to see that- Am I being-

part of the culture- Yeah ... of our church, and that we do see progress-

Rick: And there are- ... in that direction each year ... people who do that.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: There absolutely are people who do that. I'm not saying, I'm not trying to imply Autumn Ridge doesn't do this at all. I'm just saying our church is probably like a lot of churches where we're, what we do right or what we do well are the things that are easiest to do well.

And any area where we're like, man, we've got room to grow, I promise you an obstacle that we have- Is our love affair with convenience. And I'm not just talking about leaders, I'm talking about congregation, I'm talking about all of us. Yeah. That whenever there's a gap between where we are and where we think Jesus is calling us to be, one of the obstacles we have to overcome is our love affair with convenience.

Svea: Yeah. Maybe another step that we can take in this is something that was right in this- Mm-hmm ... 1 Thessalonians 5 passage that was the base camp passage for last week, in the idea of putting on- Mm-hmm ... clothing ourselves with the- So ... sturdy armor of faith and love. Yeah. Um, it talked about using faith and love as, like, our breastplate and- Yeah

and a helmet of salvation and the- Yeah ... the hope and confidence that we have- Mm-hmm ... in that. Um, can you talk a little bit more about just this idea that as we're approaching the way we think about end times, that we want to be people who we're taking up armor, and there's some military imagery in this.

And yet Paul's doing a little bit of a twist in the way we expect that he would talk about it, and we're not clothing ourselves with weaponry and war items, but with faith and love.

Rick: But it's war imagery. It's weaponry imagery. It's body armor type imagery. But then with what you think of the, the antithesis of that married together, which is- Yeah

a sign of a good communicator, I guess. You know? Yeah. Paul, Paul knows what he's doing and of course he's inspired by God through all of this.

Svea: But the- And there's brilliance there, isn't there?

Rick: Yeah. Yeah, I think there is. And, uh, and so any- anyone who's an astute reader of the New Testament, you're gonna find that there is weaponry imagery.

Yes, even Jesus, told his followers when he was talking about what it was going to be like after his arrest, after his crucifixion, he said, you know, "Make sure you have a sword." And a lot of people stop there and they're like, "See? Jesus was okay with violence. This is why we should be packing heat."

Mm-hmm. And, which is, I'm fine if you wanna do that. Pack heat, you know? You'll get a concealed carry permit or do something like that, you know? I'm not anti-gun. I'm a hunter, I like weapons. But a lot of people stop there and we're like, yeah. And I mean, I'm seeing a lot of these memes and images of guys wearing body armor and holding guns and, uh, no king but Jesus.

And you know, I'm the kinda guy that's standing between you and then their boogeyman bad guy and- But I was like, can you read the next verse?

The next verse is, the disciples go, "Hey, we got two swords right here." And then Jesus' response is, "That's enough." So clearly, he wasn't being literal. What he was saying is, "This is gonna be problematic, it's gonna be dangerous, and you need to be prepared."

And he was using that imagery to communicate, you need to be prepared for difficulty, not that you actually need to be ready to fight.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And so the Bi- I, I love, I lo- the Bible was written by adults to adults, and the expectation is we're gonna read like adults. So let's don't read like children.

Svea: So what are the, the common enemies- that the Bible is warning us against when- You ... when me?

Rick: Yeah. Oh. Your bi- your biggest enemy is you, Svea. Your biggest enemy

Svea: is you. Actually that's truth.

Rick: My biggest enemy is me. Do you know who, do you know the number one person who's talked me into all of the stupid decisions I've made in my life?

Svea: You.

Rick: Me.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Rick: I have talked myself into every dumb decision I've ever made. I have convinced myself of every lie I've ever believed.

I have, I, not only have I talked myself into dumb decisions, I have talked myself into doing things that I knew were wrong.

My, my- Yep, I've

Speaker 3: done that, too.

Rick: My biggest enemy is me.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Rick: And so, so we need to be at war with our own temptations, and desires, and moral fragility. Was it, I'm, I'm actually thinking of a, a Christian hip hop artist, oh, John Owen. "Be killing sin, or it be killing you."

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Rick: And so let's just kinda, let's be, like I know.

So we talked about convenience. W- where are all the, the back doors and, and secret entrances of where convenience is, is having its way in your heart and in your mind?

Svea: Oh, yeah. It's all selfishness. It's- It's like selfishness for comfort and- And

Rick: what it looks like for you is different from what it looks like, is what it looks like for me.

But the commonality is just a, a deep, profound love affair with convenience, and really, it's putting me at the center.

On my drive in today, I was replaying what went wrong with a relationship- in my life. And things are good now, but they'll never be what they were. It's a brother in Christ who we went through some turbulence.

And I am just as vulnerable as anybody else to adopting a narrative that paints me in the best light and puts the responsibility on the, on the other person. And really, I am a better person than him. But

Svea: Wow.

Rick: So-

Svea: You're quick to illustrate all of your points, aren't you?

Rick: So, but today I was driving in, and I thought about, I thought about a, a conversation we had in which I wasn't able to put his needs above my own.

And I don't think everything came down to that, but it's part of the story. And there's a, there was a time where we had a conversation and I felt, I felt hurt, I felt aband- I felt exposed and left on my own to deal with some hard stuff and this friend, I felt like this friend didn't have my back.

And in that conversation, I just did not have the ability to put his needs above my own.

And I bet that hurt him. When I say I'm my biggest enemy, or you're your biggest enemy, and quoting John Owen, "Be killing sin, or it be killing you," this is the kind of stuff that I'm talking about.

I'm not just saying like, "Hey, did you watch porn on Saturday?"

Or, "Were you too mean to your husband?" Or, "Do you spend too much of..." I'm not just, like, talking about isolated moments of sin, but we have those. Or, and, you know, maybe calling those isolated moments are dumb. We have a kind of pattern of bad behavior. But I'm talking about stuff even deeper than that.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Deep-down ways of being that are not good for us. And remembering that Christ is returning He is king. I'm a citizen in his kingdom, and he has called me and made me able to be his representative means being like him. I wanna be like him, and that means I do as he did. That's what an ambassador does.

And so that means thinking about this seriously should drive me to want to be with Jesus now so that I can become more like him and do as he did. And we have a tendency in our country to use military imagery to exalt ourselves and give license to aggression. That's just not the way that imagery is used in the New Testament.

If you read in Revelation, John, he hears about the lion, and he's ra- he's looking for the lion, and he turns around, and he sees the lion. Mm. But what does the lion look like? A slain lamb. And so God's word is constantly taking what we're familiar with and flipping it upside down and causing us to see it totally differently.

And so perhaps I'm going around the world to check the mail, but let me see if I can l- bring us here.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Rick: Maybe there's something inside of me, and other people can relate to it, that the way that I approach church is, I, which I think is right side up, and it's kind of my default way, and it's normal.

But if I really take Ge- Jesus seriously, the way that I approach should be totally flipped upside down. And I talked about being patient with kids and kids ministry. I think back to and I bet this is similar to your story when I was a kid growing up in church, it was the same adults in my Sunday school class every week, all year long.

And they created the kind of space where it was hyper-predictable, and I felt loved, and I grew. And, and that's just a part of my story of growing up and growing up in the faith. That is not as common today as it used to be, but man, I would love it.

I would love it if the children in our church had adults who loved being there with them week in and week- Yeah

out- Yeah ... helping to build them up. I got to be a youth pastor for 12 years. Probably my favorite season was when we had adult volunteers who moved all the way from middle school through high school with the same group of teenagers. And almost all of them, 75% of them or more are still in church.

Some of them are in active ministry. All of them are at least volunteers in ministry at their church. It's a profound impact. And man, I would... That's a bit upside down- Yeah ... from the way a lot of people engage or the way that the culture draws us to engage. And I long for a little bit more of that.

Svea: I resonate with that.

I can see that in my own story, too, and- Hmm ... think of those adults that invested in me and that made such a difference.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: So maybe bringing this all together, we talked about community. Mm-hmm. We talked about character. You're just touching on kind of what it looks like to be the person that's building up- Mm-hmm

the community of Christ, and all of this being so much more important than predicting when Jesus will return- Yeah ... but preparing ourselves- Being prepared,

Rick: yeah ...

Svea: for that day. Um, I wanna just talk about one last verse from this passage 'cause it, it continues on the vein of where we just were. Paul said to, "Warn the idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, and be patient with everyone."

You know, what I found fascinating in that is he doesn't tell people to just respond the same way- To everyone. Yeah. It's not be patient with the idle.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Svea: It's, it's kind of looking at the needs- Mm-hmm ... around us and then giving each person what they need. Um, I loved your line about, to the person that's feeling weak, to loan them your strength.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Svea: You know, it's not at all condescending, 'cause I s- think sometimes we might see someone in our midst that you can tell they're just in a weak time right now. And rather than having anything condescending in your mind towards them, or, you know, like, even p- the sympathy that, that edges towards negativity of- "Oh, well, just those poor people."

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: But instead, what can I do to give that person my strength or my courage to build them up?

Rick: You know what it looks like a lot of times? Just simply being with them.

Just being there and saying and living out, "I got your back. You're not alone in this." It's amazing how powerful that is.

Svea: Yeah. I'm excited for this series. I'm excited that we're not gonna just be, uh, studying the end times for the sake of fascination- Mm-hmm ... or curiosity, or do we have the latest ideas- Mm ... that maybe decodes something in the news right now. But instead, how can this help us be people that are more like Jesus, and how can we foster incredibly beautiful, godly community that isn't just for here and now, but is something that will last for eternity?