Church is Messy

Church Is Messy, 02-18-2026 Ep133
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Svea: Good morning, Rick. Welcome back to Church Is Messy and our opportunity to talk about a rather messy passage of Scripture.

Rick: Oh my goodness. This is, I think, one of the more uncomfortable chapters in, in the New Testament and uh, I was happy to preach on it, but uh, I felt some stuff leading up to it. Yeah, definitely always wanting to get it right.

Also recognize that there are some things about this that are awkward and uncomfortable. Hopefully there's a lot of laughter and, and, uh, enjoy in this conversation even as we talk about a subject matter that is, I don't know, nobody gets excited about it might be a good thing, but I don't know anybody gets excited about it.

Svea: Yeah. Well, I anticipate a great conversation. Okay. I've actually been looking forward to sitting down and, and talking through this passage. 'cause I think there's all kinds of potential for people to misunderstand what's here. But what's really here is good.

Rick: Oh, I immediately went to, you. Were excited to sit down and talk about it 'cause you just make me feel more uncomfortable. Oh, just make me go even further with it. Okay. Alright.

Svea: Well there's always a little bit of fun in watching you squirm. No, that's great. You know, just to bring people up to speed mm-hmm.

If they missed this last weekend Sure. Or, or maybe it's been a few days mm-hmm. Since they've been at church and we're talking about first Corinthians five, and it begins with this really kind of icky situation

Oh,

Rick: totally.

Svea: About a man in the church who's sleeping with his stepmother.

Rick: Yes. Yeah. And, uh, the people in the church knew about it and they did nothing.

They just. Looked the other way and the Apostle ball said, you guys are proud. And, and I suppose that somebody could read and it's like, were they proud about that or were they just operating from a disposition of pride and kind of just full of themselves? I tend to see it more as like that. Mm-hmm. They just operated from a disposition of pride.

They boze about themselves. They thought what a great church we are. And yet they had this stuff going on that was just like an unaddressed, just corrosive. Toxic reality in the midst of them that they just wanted to pretend wasn't there.

And Paul said, no, we're not gonna pretend it's not there.

We're gonna address it. We're gonna address it directly. Not not with meanness. Not with unkindness, not with any lack of love, but it's gonna be love. But love that might feel difficult to receive because it confronts us. I, I heard a pastor say this recently. And he was quoting somebody else, but essentially understanding the cross is this, that I'm siding with God against myself.

And I loved that. Mm-hmm. Because God's not against me, but he is against things that I do and I should be against things and. That I do. And the whole concept of repentance and understanding what Jesus accomplished on, on the cross is, my goodness, my sin is a big deal. It violates so many good things.

It violates love for God. It violates love for myself. It violates love for others. And yeah, I agree with God. I'm in the wrong about that. And the Paul, Paul is just leading this church to be a, this pro. This is a term that's probably gonna come up a lot in the next sermon cruciform shaped by the reality of the cross.

And they would rather not acknowledge it. They would rather avoid it. And so whenever we have to engage something that we would rather avoid, that can feel uncomfortable, but it's not unkind and it's not unloving, and hopefully together, we're able to, we're able to, to see that and even, even rest in it.

Svea: And we've mentioned in prior podcast mm-hmm. Episodes on this book already, how relevant scripture is. Mm-hmm. And it, even though the situation that was happening in Corinth is not identical to what it looks like to live in Rochester, Minnesota in 2026, the themes are still present.

Rick: Sure.

Svea: And there is both.

Maybe a simultaneous disappointment and also comfort in recognizing that human nature in the first century remains to be human nature nowadays too. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, and, and on one level it's disappointing to see the dysfunction happening in this church, but it's also to recognize we still have to deal with some of the same vulnerabilities that we have when we face things that are messy.

I'm watching a twinkle in your eye appear.

Rick: It's, it's simultaneously, discomforting and comforting.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: So we're,

Svea: but it's just, it's just reality, isn't it?

Rick: There's nothing uniquely wrong with us, it's just commonly wrong with us. Right. This is, this is something that people have been dealing with with a long time.

Just a reminder, we, we need Jesus in the way of Jesus.

Svea: Yeah, absolutely.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: I'd love for us to get into some of the nitty gritty of this. Passage and some of the phrases and things that you didn't really have time to expand upon. Sure. In the message. Yeah. But before we do that mm-hmm. Um, can I give you just a moment to speak to a little bit of the pastoral heart that you had for what themes you were seeking to bring out mm-hmm.

In this message, because this is one that had a couple of ditches. Mm-hmm. So, you know, your, your favorite phrase about it, for every mile of road there's two miles of ditch.

Rick: Yeah. Isn't that a great phrase?

Svea: I love

Rick: that. I don't know who first came up with that, but it's so true.

Svea: And I can see that.

'cause I would imagine, yeah. We didn't specifically talk about this, but I would imagine that you were trying to balance these ditches of, if we go super hard on the way that we need to address sin in the church, that's. That's important to bring out. Mm-hmm. But it could also leave people that are struggling with sin.

Mm-hmm. To feel like, oh, maybe I'm gonna get kicked outta church. Oh, sure. And lead them to feel like I'm safe. They can't be honest. I safe with what they're struggling. I'm not safe here. Yeah.

Rick: Or even if I do stay here, I can't, like you just said, I can't be real. Because I'm gonna get the boot.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And so that's a ditch. Mm-hmm. And yet on the other side, we don't wanna commit the same error we see happening in this church in Corinth and soft pedal sin. Mm-hmm. And, uh, pretend like it's not a big deal. So I'm just curious how it, as you were preparing for this, how you thought about how to kind of balance these two tensions and yet stay grounded in truth and grace.

Rick: Yeah, it, it's a challenge, isn't it? And so one of the, one of the things that, the first thing I'm trying to do is I just wanna understand to the best of my ability what's going on. And I feel like if I can, if I can understand what's going on, then it's gonna help me better see Paul's heart for the people.

Which will help me see Jesus's heart. For the people, and then I can get my heart in line with that to the best, as best as I can, as I'm, as I'm preparing, as I'm preparing for that. Another thing that, that's kind of going through my mind, Faye, is how does this connect to or intersect some common experiences that people have

Svea: mm-hmm.

Rick: And, and things that they are, they're thinking and they're feeling that they may not even be aware. That they're thinking and feeling. And then how does this, how does this, uh, how does this help people in their lives today?

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And so I'm, I'm processing, I'm processing all of that. And so my heart is, uh, recognizing that the church is a place of, of grace.

There are all kinds of people who with all kinds of sin, basically all people here are. Have in their past and their present and their future, all kinds of, of different sin. And I've said this before on the podcast, it will eventually make its way into a sermon that Jesus simultaneously raised the bar or lowered the bar and raised the standard.

Just lower the bar and raise the standard. The bar is this low. Do you believe what Jesus did for you? Do you trust him? That's it. That's all you have to do to be in. You do not have to achieve anything morally. Do you trust in what Jesus did on your behalf? Yes. Alright, so you're in now. He's raised the standard.

This is what it means to live as one who is in him. This is what it means to live as a citizen of his kingdom under his rule. 'cause he's the one who rules. And so now we're spending the rest of our life growing into the status of holiness that we were given simply because we trusted him. Yeah. So you're with me so far.

Svea: I love that. Okay. Lowered the bar, but raised the standard.

Rick: Absolutely. It's so everybody's here, everybody's in, everybody who is a follower of Jesus is holy and is now need needing to grow into that status. So if you are. Engaged in any sin, it doesn't mean that you're kicked out i'm as a, as a pastor sitting here thinking about people who are hearing these words that might land in, in a heavy way on them is, wow, we gotta know the difference between being in the fight and struggling with sin versus just being stubbornly entrenched.

Yeah. And that's, and that, I hate it when people quote themselves. I'm not trying to quote myself here, but I'm just, I'm trying to give a little bit of backstory

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Of how we got. We got to that point, and clearly I think Paul, it, I say clearly it feels clear to me, may not be clear to other people that Paul recognizes that because later he talks about other sexual sin in the church.

There were dudes going to see prostitutes. Mm-hmm. He did not call them out. He did not call them out that they need to be kicked out of the church and disfellowship for the, their eventual salvation. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm on a skinny branch here. But it says to me that, that Paul is recognized.

There's something different going on here. There's some guys that they're stuck in their culture and they're not stubbornly entrenched, trying to openly defy Jesus, although they are rebelling against the way of Jesus. Versus here's a particular guy who is, that is, seems like exactly what he is doing.

He is openly, publicly defying the way mm-hmm. Of Jesus. And that required a different response than people who were struggling. With sexual sins in a different way.

Svea: I think

Rick: that, does that make any sense?

Svea: Yeah. I think that's an, a really crucial distinction. Mm-hmm. And I think that speaks to a lot of the way that maybe it's helpful for us to be addressing sexual sin in the church mm-hmm.

Today.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: That there is a big difference between people who are struggling. Mm-hmm. You know, they know what the way of Jesus is calling them to, and they're just struggling. Follow that standard. That's very different than a Defiant, I know what the way of Jesus is and I reject that, and I'm going to make my own choices about my own sexuality.

Mm-hmm. Even though I know it's not what he would want for me.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Those are two very different categories.

Rick: I think so. Mm-hmm. I think, I think they're, I think they're different categories and so, we respond to those differently. You don't respond with a different standard. Obedience is obedience.

Trusting in the way of Jesus is what it is. Holiness is holiness. It doesn't change for different people. But what's going on inside of people might be different. And so we respond to what's going on inside of them differently.

Svea: Mm-hmm. I really liked, and I've heard you use this phrase before, I was glad you brought it back in this message again.

Mm-hmm. The line, the question isn't what are the rules? Mm-hmm. It's who rules.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: And it's not that the rules quote in quotes mm-hmm. Aren't important.

Rick: They just don't come first.

Svea: Yeah. It's when we, when we approach some of these topics first with. Let's focus on Jesus and where he's driving.

Mm-hmm. Us towards that is a better orientation and starting place than just trying to figure out what are the, the rules of the game here.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And not be focused on religion, the way of Jesus

Rick: religion. Religion starts with rules, but the gospel is, what Jesus has brought is something to totally different.

Mm-hmm. It's the proclamation of the gospel began with. The kingdom is here. Repent. So it's about who rules. It's not about all the rules yet that that comes later. He, the king has commands and we should follow them. But who is the king? I gotta know that. And it's not me. And sometimes I want it to be me.

Mm-hmm. But it is not me.

Svea: Well, it changes our, our orientation in our motivations, doesn't it? Oh, sure. So if I'm focused first on, okay, I need to focus on who is ruling mm-hmm. Over my life. If I'm focused first on Jesus, then my motivation is I wanna know him. I wanna know what his way is. I wanna know why he wants this for me.

And then as I see that, and I wanna live my life in a way that pleases him it's done out of love, out of admiration for him, out of allegiance. Mm-hmm. If I oriented my life around, well, what are the rules? Mm-hmm. Then it becomes self-oriented. It's all about me. Absolutely. How good am I doing?

Rick: Absolutely.

Svea: Am I living up to my own standard? I agree with you. Am. Am I checking the boxes? Mm-hmm. On what I've, I see here as right or wrong? Mm-hmm. And if I'm doing well, I'm feeling puffed up and prideful in that. Mm-hmm. If I'm not doing well, I'm feeling like a total failure.

Rick: If he could look down from heaven and hear what's going on in this podcast, I'm not sure that we are distributed in heaven.

Tim Keller would be dancing and applauding everything you just said.

Svea: Oh, that's a weird image. No, but I think that's. It's such a helpful framework and it's not diminishing.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: The importance of living our life in a way that pleases Jesus, but I think it just gives us such a healthier mindset and the kind of mindset he would want us to have.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you.

Svea: So as we think about

The importance of not just our own individual life, but the responsibility that we have as the body of Christ and as the church. Mm-hmm. This passage is very clearly talking about mm-hmm. Addressing sin that's happening within the body of believers,

Rick: not out

Svea: in the community around them, not about people who don't believe this

Rick: pulse.

What business is it of mine?

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: It's not my business.

Svea: So I wanna get to some fascinating questions. Yeah. We've got about that.

Rick: We've got some good questions

Svea: because on one hand mm-hmm. You know, just stereotypically in the world. Mm-hmm. And culture. In these days, Christians as a general category, sadly, have a reputation for being people who are highly judgmental.

And sometimes people who are imposing are. Own views of morality on those who don't believe it. Mm-hmm. And even within the message, you, you kind of pointed that out, that mm-hmm. We would be very arrogant mm-hmm. To try to hold people to our standard when they haven't ascribed or said that they even believe in that standard.

Mm-hmm. And I get that. I was trying to process it a little bit and I was thinking yeah, I mean, I don't wanna be judged by my Muslim neighbor because I'm not fasting during Ramadan. It's like, I don't celebrate. That's, that's not your religion. Don't fast during then. Yeah. So it'd be weird.

Don't judge me for something that I don't celebrate.

Rick: Yeah. Or to say it another way, uh, it would be weird to hold you accountable to a standard that you don't affirm.

Svea: Mm-hmm. So I, I see what you're saying there.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: One question that I have in that though is that we follow the way of Jesus because we believe it is what leads to life abundantly.

Mm-hmm. To, to life, to the full life

Rick: of thriving, for sure. Mm-hmm.

Svea: And so wouldn't we want the same things for people who are non-believers?

Rick: We absolutely do. But it's a different, those, these are two different things. They do relate to each other, but they're not the same thing. Yes. You want something better for somebody.

Mm-hmm. You may even want something better for someone than they want for themselves. Great. Wonderful. Yes. That is distinct from holding them accountable. To it.

Svea: Mm.

Rick: That's a different thing. And so, soya, if, if you and I are strangers, we, we don't know each other. I'm a follower of Jesus.

Maybe you're, you're not a you're not a follower of Jesus. You just, you don't believe it. You believe you believe something else. Well, I want you to know Jesus. I want you to follow Jesus. I'm gonna share that. And I'm gonna do my best to live it in front of you in such a way that you see, you see glimpses of Jesus', truth, goodness, and beauty in my life.

And I also want to. Talk to you and engage you in such a way that the Christian faith is winsome and I am engaging in, in persuasion. 'Cause I want you to see the truth and know it. Mm-hmm. All that's wonderful. Mm-hmm. It's a totally different thing for me to come over and say SPHE, I noticed you did a.

X, Y, Z.

And you know that's wrong. Well, that's a totally different thing. Now I'm pretending I'm the morality police.

Svea: Sure.

Rick: I'm pretending like it's my job to come over and, and share those things with you. Nothing in scripture ever tells me to do that. Absolutely. We were told, want the best for You want thriving for you.

Want you to know life. That is truly life. I love how Paul described that in that way. That's only found to Jesus. I want you to have new life. I want you to have all of that kind of stuff. And so I'm gonna share that. And sharing is very different from engaging in judgment.

Svea: Sure. Well, again, the motivation is different, right?

Rick: Yeah. Now, yeah. Yes. The motivation is different. Go. I think we both had a thought at the same time. I wanna listen to yours.

Svea: Well, just the if what I'm doing is trying to point people to something mm-hmm. That I think is truly good for them. Yeah. I'm wanting to offer them something. Mm-hmm.

That's valuable. If I am judging them mm-hmm. Because they're not living according to the standard mm-hmm. That, that I ascribe to, then I'm actually taking something away from them. Oh yeah. And uh, and, and the motivation isn't necessarily what's their, in their best interest. It's focusing on what I believe they're doing that's currently destructive.

Rick: There are two things that I wanna address. They might seem a little ethereal.

Svea: Okay.

Rick: I might not do a great job describing 'em, so I'm gonna need your help. Okay? Are you ready?

Svea: Sure.

Rick: Here are the two things. Number one is we need to be clear about what we mean when we say the word judge or judgment. It is not, well, we talk about judgment.

I don't think we're talking about condemnation, like I'm not empowered to condemn anybody. That is, that's God's job alone. We talk about judgment. I, it is my responsibility to recognize and state and act on the difference between right and wrong wise and foolish, helpful, harmful. And I think that's what Paul is doing.

I think that's what, I think that's what we're, I think that's what we are encouraged to do. We don't get to condemn, but we do have to engage in, I think the word is discernment. Mm-hmm. And discernment and action. And so there's that. And so, here's a, here's another thing. Let's see if I can, let's see if I can do an okay-ish job of trying to describe that.

If I'm sharing my faith with you and you don't believe in Jesus, and I'm trying to woo you to become followers of Jesus, it is at least implied that I disagree with you.

Svea: That,

Rick: that I think the route that you're going in is wrong. Mm-hmm. And yes, but it's also implied that you think I'm wrong.

Sure. And you think that that the route that, that, that the thing that I'm, that I'm holding to isn't best or isn't, isn't true. Well, there's no avoiding that, that's just a part of life. We're not trying to pretend as though we don't disagree, but we are not engaging in any action holding.

Body accountable for disagreeing with what we believe is true.

If we don't have that kind of relationship with them and if they're not followers of Jesus.

Does

Svea: that feel clear? Yeah. Awareness of disagreement Yeah. Is not a problem.

Rick: That's right.

Svea: It's just inevitable.

Rick: Mm-hmm. So we're not engaging in condemnation and we're not pretending that we don't disagree.

Yeah. We disagree. But we're not condemning. We are discerning. And we disagree, and we're not holding accountable unless we have the relationship that warrants and allows for accountability. We gotta understand that sharing our faith, wanting the best for others, and holding people accountable.

They might relate, but they're not the same thing.

Svea: So I wanna take us to then. Kind of a hot topic and it's gonna bridge us into a good question. Okay. That got sent in for us. Yeah. We often based on the, the wonderful thing that we live in a country that practices democracy mm-hmm. We have the opportunity to shape laws mm-hmm.

Of our land. Mm-hmm. And as Christians, generally speaking, we seek to, to vote for politicians that will uphold laws that are more in alignment mm-hmm. With our Christian values.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: And, uh. Yet if we're not supposed to be judging people outside the church or holding them accountable,

Rick: there's the key, there's the key difference.

We're always engaging in discernment. Mm-hmm. We're not always engaging in accountability. And that's the distinction we need to understand.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: 100% of the time use discernment. You don't use accountability 100% of the time only in the relationships that merit it.

Svea: So, so the question Yeah. Came in saying if we're not supposed to be in the morality police

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: Why are Christians celebrating overturning Roe versus Wade? Mm-hmm. Uh, the question continues is the whole basis for which pro-life Christians base their position here, not based on their morality, because God created human life at conception. One ought to not have an abortion. I can understand that as a moral argument, but why then are Christians imposing that on others on the basis of morality if we're not meant to be the morality police?

Rick: There's a lot there. It probably deserves more time than we can dedicate in this podcast, but I'll do my best. There are a number of components there. Let me run through them quickly. Number one, why are Christians celebrating the overturning of rope? I don't know. I can't speak for others. I think there's some people who believe that.

If Roe was overturned. I think there are people who believed with the overturning of Roe that it would lead to a decrease in abortions and ultimately become illegal. And maybe, perhaps even eradicated I don't know if this is still online, but we talked about it that weekend and our church and I sat on a stool and I said before the congregation I am pro-life not pro-birth.

I'm pro-life and I'm trying to be holistically pro-life. I'm concerned that this might be a PY victory and. By that it, it might have been a legal victory that came at too high a cost. And I remember somebody, uh, asked me shortly after that, do you have any concern that this was actually gonna lead to more abortions?

And my answer was, yeah, I really am. And what we saw is that some states the. Increase their restrictions against abortions and then other states loosen their restrictions almost encouraging. Mm-hmm. More abortions. And then we saw companies paying for employees if they were in a state where they couldn't get an abortion to be able to travel to another state and get an abortion.

And I think people were celebrating that. And I just wanna pump the brakes to say, not too fast my friend. That may not be altruism. If that is a company that has a history. Of, I don't know, using their excess cash to buy back stocks to inflate their stocks. And so the CEO gets a higher bonus and they don't have a pattern of paying their employees a living wage and they don't have a pattern of increasing benefits for their employees, and they don't have a culture that really benefits a life of thriving.

And they have a tendency to use supply chains that rely on. Practically slave labor that exploits people's poverty and a violation of human rights. Maybe it wasn't altruism that was funding that initiative. Maybe it was because it's cheaper than providing paternity leave. Hmm. So I'm just saying a wise person's gonna pump the brakes and say maybe it's not how they're spinning it.

Okay.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: So obviously I got some feels about this. I just think we need to, I just think we need to slower role and think about this clearly. Yeah, I didn't celebrate the overturning a road, not because I'm not pro-life, I am pro-life, but it immediately resulted in an re immediate is too strong.

What it did is it resulted in an increase in abortion rate for the first time we'd ever seen since the seventies. Mm-hmm. Basically since Gerald Ford, um. Certainly Carter, we have seen a decline in abortion rates with every single president, Republican, or Democrat. Donald Trump was the first president that it increased it.

It increased again under the presidency of Joe Biden. Oh man. So, I'm just gonna say I'm not sure that it's something that should be, should be celebrated. But continuing on with the question of, uh. So why are we against abortion? When I say we're not the morality police one that was given in the context of somebody's private moral choices.

When I say that we're not the morality police, that's not to say that there is no police, and that's not to say that there are no crimes. All laws are based in a view of morality. It is a nonsensical slogan to say you don't legislate morality. There might be a nugget of truth buried deep down in there, but it is at best an incomplete and nonsensical statement.

We should be about justice and it is immoral to violate crimes that are rooted in justice. It might be moral to violate crimes that are rooted in injustice. Are you with me? Mm-hmm. Is that, is that making sense? We hold people accountable corporately, city. County state nation for violating the law and committing crimes, right?

And so say you do something it is immoral, but you haven't violated somebody else's human rights or their freedom. And we don't have the kind of relationship that merits me holding you accountable. I'm not gonna hold you accountable. You do something that, violates someone's rights or freedoms.

That's probably gonna be against the law. I'm not the one who holds you accountable, but I might call 9 1 1.

So that you are held accountable to the law. We don't hold people accountable to the law individually. We only do so corporately. That's one of the reasons that if you are a vigilante and you take retribution against someone who commits a crime, you're gonna go to jail too.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. So where's our viewpoint? That it should be illegal? To have abortions. Well, from our side of the street, from a, a historic orthodox Christian faith perspective is, that's a life. It's a life and taking the life violates. Someone's both their freedom and their human rights.

And so we are in favor of that not being sanctioned and promoted and allowed by the government. But we don't hold individuals accountable for that. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. We do that corporately and let's say sphe. There's a, there's person X over here, a woman, and she has an abortion and she's not a follower of Jesus.

And I I don't have a relationship with her in which she's given me permission to hold her accountable if she hasn't broken the law. But she engaged in that it might break my heart. It breaks my heart for her. It breaks my heart for the child. It breaks my heart for other people who are, who are impacted by this.

But I don't go and hold her accountable. But I absolutely believe that that's not a good thing to do. Mm-hmm. That that's wrong. Mm-hmm. And that it breaks the heart of God and it's bad for everybody involved.

Svea: It is a nuanced difference. Yes. But it is a big difference.

Rick: Yes. And so I as a voter is I'm going to vote for laws and candidates who will codify laws that I believe are rooted.

Injustice and what is, what contributes most to human thriving.

I mean, there's a lot there's a lot there. So at the end of the day, this is what's going on. We should, we've got to exercise discernment. Going back to the early days of the church, uh, Rome it wasn't technically abortion.

They would just leave. Children out to, to die from the elements. And Christians would go and protect these kids, scoop them up, uh, from the side of the road or from dumps and raise them, and that eventually became illegal. Because of generations of Christians doing that, and by watching the Christians live in a way that reflected truth, goodness of beauty that promoted life and thriving, all of that, we talked about Rome, the empire.

Rome lost their stomach for that practice and they didn't just, they didn't just decide they didn't want to do it anymore. They wanted. That Rome decided to make it illegal, and they eventually attached the death penalty to anyone who engaged in that practice. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't from Christians going and saying, Hey, you're wrong.

It was from Christians stepping into that mass and saving the life of the person.

It's profound.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah. And I think a more effective way mm-hmm. To get to the heart Yeah. Of an issue, uh, rather than starting at the surface level and hoping that it trickles down.

Rick: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So engage in discernment, individual accountability, only shared faith, and you have the, a relationship that in which you've given, been given permission to, or your, this relationship that requires it. So like if your parent and your child is doing something, you don't need their permission to hold them accountable.

That's your job, Uhhuh, right? You're responsible for doing that.

Svea: So, I mean, maybe that's a good transition kind of back into the context of this passage. Yeah. That the nature of the relationship Yeah. Determines the way that you're going to approach Absolutely. What's happening there.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And so in this case, when the nature of the relationship is believers in Jesus mm-hmm. Versus people who are not believers. That's what we've been talking about. But now let's transition back into the context of this passage. Mm-hmm. Where it's believers. Addressing mm-hmm. A sinful situation with some kind of defiant sin, um, happening amongst believers.

So totally different. Mm-hmm. Different, uh, ball of acts here.

Rick: Yeah. Where do you want me to begin?

Svea: So how about, uh, there's some punchy phrases in here. You, you unpacked, I think what was probably the most provocative one mm-hmm. About, uh, you can hand this man over to Satan for, for

Rick: the destruction of his flesh.

So that, so that Right. For his Salvation

Uhhuh.

Rick: And again, you know, I said in the sermon, I don't think that is literal. And I'm not trying to say that Satan isn't real. That's not what isn't an actual being. What I'm trying to say is that this is Paul's way of saying if he wants to follow the way of Satan, let him follow the way of Satan.

If he wants to abandon the way of Jesus to, to follow the accuser and the deceiver, let him don't stand in his way. But also don't shield him from the consequences. Mm-hmm. And the reason that we don't shield from the consequences is because those consequences will motivate him to reconsider and repent and turn and follow Jesus.

And that's exactly what the guy did. Mm-hmm. Which is awesome.

Svea: So I'm glad you went there 'cause that's where I was. Mm-hmm. Hoping to go next. This idea of the motivation here mm-hmm. Is to not shield him from the consequences. Mm-hmm. If he has made up his mind, this is the way he's gonna live. Mm-hmm.

You've had a conversation with him mm-hmm. In a, in a loving, in a kind way that's trying to point him to, you know, you're doing some things here that are really destructive mm-hmm. To yourself, to the nature of this relationship mm-hmm. To the fellowship of our, our community of believers here. And if he's not willing to change his ways

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: Holding him letting him experience the consequences of that Sure. Is a natural way of of letting him feel the weight of his choices.

Rick: That's right. That's right.

Svea: All of that at the same time. That can be hard to do, that can be even scary to do.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And I've seen that it's, it can be hard to do that as a parent to let your kids feel the consequences of their actions.

Mm-hmm. It can be scary as a pastor to let one of the people in our church feel the consequences of their actions. It can be scary as a leader to let someone who reports to you. Feel the consequences and you might wanna step in and protect them from that. So sure. How do we act in a wise way, where on one hand, sometimes we have to do that for their own good.

And yet fight the tension we might feel in wanting to protect someone. 'cause we feel like it would be more loving to protect them from the pain.

Rick: Wisdom can't be reduced to a policy. Wisdom cannot be reduced to a list of rules. That's why in Ephesians, the apostle Paul said, listen, don't get drunk with wine.

Be filled with the spirit. Be wise because the days are evil. He didn't say, know all the rules because the days are evil.

Svea: Mm.

Rick: So be wise, and this is gonna require wisdom, and wisdom always requires judgment calls. And so there's nothing that I can say. Right now that's gonna provide sufficient clarity for every single situation.

Wisdom is essentially competency in regards to the demands and the complexities and the requirements of life. And so, I firmly support and cheer lead and want to echo Tim Mackey when he is like, yeah, you gotta sit with this. You gotta spend some time thinking about it. You need to take long walks and slow sips.

He says tea, I'd say coffee, you know, and and really, really contemplate really, really contemplate this. But at the end of the day, we do know. We do know this. This is our starting point and I think I did something kinda weird and maybe even dumb as a communicator. At the end of the day, this is where we start love for Jesus with all of who we are and love for the other as though they were ourselves.

And so we're gonna start there. And if we're aiming at that, our intent is always right, even if sometimes our impact is wrong, and I think it's easier to live with. An impact that's wrong than an intent that's wrong. It doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt, and I'm not excusing it away, but, soya, if you hurt my feelings and that wasn't your intent, it was unintentional.

You were aiming at something else, but you ended up hurting me. Well, I still feel hurt.

But I don't feel the same amount of hurt because the hurt would be amplified if I thought you were trying to do it.

Svea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rick: And so, um. I mean, like if you stepped on my toe, knowing that you didn't do it on purpose doesn't make it hurt any less.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: But it certainly doesn't hurt more. Are you with me on that?

Svea: Well, there's, yeah, there's extra layers if you knew I just went and stomped on your foot on purpose.

Rick: So I guess what I wanna say about to everybody out there is give yourself grace and give one another grace. So if you whiff on the impact, do whiff on the impact.

Own it. Do your best to make it right as quickly as you can. Yeah. And make sure,

Svea: but check your intent.

Rick: Check your intent. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm thinking about the John Chris, check your heart.

Svea: Yep.

Rick: The community. Yeah. And then do your best to grow. Hey, listen, it's, having a multitude of wise people around you who are, yeah.

Svea: That's

Rick: so

Svea: important.

Rick: Really, really important. Invest in wisdom. The first rule of wisdom is this. Get wisdom.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: How do you become a, and how

Svea: do you get it?

Rick: How do you become a better runner? You just go run

Svea: uhhuh.

Rick: You just go run and it's that way with wisdom.

Svea: Yeah. So there's another line in this passage mm-hmm.

That I think requires a lot of wisdom and maybe first some explanation.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Later in the passage, not referring specifically to this man that they were letting feel the consequences of his choices and putting him outside of their fellowship so that he could be hopefully returned to them. Mm-hmm.

Repentant. Th Paul also addresses people that are trapped in a number of different sins, and it's not just sexual immorality. Mm-hmm. It included that, but it also included greed, other categories. Yeah.

Rick: Slander.

Idolatry. And idolatry from a biblical perspective, is not simply bowing down in front of a statue.

It is looking to anything, anyone, something other than Jesus ultimately. For your significance, security and satisfaction in life. Mm-hmm. People make idols out of work. People make idols out of politics. People make idols out of sports. People make idols out of, out of wealth and, and achievements. So, I mean, there's all kinds of things that we can, people make idols out of youth.

I mean, there's all kinds of things that we make sure that we can make into idols 'cause we're trying to squeeze out of them. I am enough. Uh, my life is worth living. Having, this is what makes me safe and this is ultimately going to satisfy me.

Svea: Well, and when you explain it that way, it's hard for any of us not to identify with mm-hmm.

At least times in our life when we can say, yes, I have definitely done that.

Rick: Yeah. Let's talk about some of your times. Okay. Let's just, you know, unpack this on the podcast for all the people.

Svea: Absolutely. Let's just lay all of my, uh, vulnerabilities bare right here.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: But in verse 11, Paul, even including mm-hmm.

The kinds of things that you were just addressing, he says, don't even eat with such people.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Now to not even eat with someone,

Rick: don't associate with 'em. Don't eat with 'em.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Does that mean that it would've been, would've been wrong? If there's somebody from your congregation, somebody from your church meeting in the house, church that, that you go to, and, and they are stubbornly entrenched in sin, would it be wrong to sit down with them and enjoy a cup of coffee at Corinth Cafe?

Svea: Well, that's drinking, not eating. But if you have a biscoti with it, yes,

Rick: yes, yes. You know, a, uh. A scone, perhaps, you know, a blueberry muffin. Yeah. Whatever. Whatever the snack of

Svea: choice. Well isn't, that's one of the reasons why we can't just take a surface level reading of scripture. Yeah. Why we can't just, uh, do a plain reading of the text.

Rick: Let me give you, uh, lemme give you two possibilities and perhaps there's more, but there, there's at least two. And good hearted, very smart Jesus loving people are gonna disagree on this. It's possible that Paul was talking about don't ever don't have this person over to your house for a meal. Don't sit down, don't go to their house for dinner.

Don't sit down and share any food whatsoever. It's a, it's a, it's a total break. They are shunned. That's one view. The other view is that Paul is actually talking about communion and the way that they did communion is different than, than the way that, that we do it. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

How to do it the way that they did it, but

Svea: it would take a big volunteer team.

Rick: It would take a massive volunteer. You think it's hard to find kids ministry volunteers? Man, it'd be hard to find this volunteer. They had what's called an agape feast where they shared a meal every time they gathered together.

Mm-hmm. And. The Lord's Supper was included in that. So it wasn't just people gorging themselves on bread and drinking wine. It was all kinds of food. But the, the Lord's, uh, the Lord's Supper was, was included in that,

Svea: even a way to, to feed people that were hungry. Yeah.

Rick: Oh, that's right.

Svea: Yeah. It's beautiful practice.

Rick: As we make our way through First Corinthians, we're gonna see that there's a lot of problems with how they were engaging in this. And PHE just really just in a. Stunningly grotesque, divisive, hierarchical display. Rich people were eating all the food, and those who were poor in the church were not eating anything.

And it became, it became a way to show who had higher rank and prestige and power and honor in the church, and other people were humiliated and it was just horrible. I mean, it is just, it's just horrible. And so Paul is doing a lot in Corinthians to correct this practice.

And so it's at least possible.

In the first Corinthians five where Paul says, don't eat with them, don't associate with them and eat with them is, you know, don't let them be a part of that because of their sin. They don't get to join in, they, they don't get to, they don't get to join in, in, in this, in

Svea: this practice

Rick: until they

Svea: were the church fellowship.

Rick: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So is it possible that Paul was saying. Well, yeah, you could have them over for dinner and you guys can continue to be friends and you can invest in them and try to woo them. That's at least, that's at least possible. But when you gather together for this piece, no, you cannot do that.

And you know, s Faye you started off talking about, uh, the plain reading of the text, and we want it to be simple and clear, and I love it when things are simple and clear, but, uh, God's word is written by adults to adults, and it's ultimately inspired. By God himself through them to us. I don't know why we should expect that it's always simple and it doesn't take much time to understand.

Paul let us in on the fact that people were getting it wrong. He said, when I told, I wrote to you and I said, don't associate with certain people. And then he said, I'm telling I didn't mean everybody out there. I'm talking about within the confines of the church. Mm-hmm. And so. The people who knew Paul personally, Uhhuh, they, you know, they were perhaps came to faith because of Paul.

Paul's the guy who planted their church. They knew him in a way that we don't get to know him. They misunderstood what he wrote. Yeah. What makes us think we are not gonna Yeah. Misunderstand. So it's important to, to really take time and slow down and do our best to, to see it. From all the angles so that we can understand it

Svea: correctly.

That, that's good. That's good. I wanna wrap us up here. Mm-hmm. But, uh, let's jump forward back into our present day. And so we've, we've addressed some of the issues that were happening in the Corinthian church. Mm-hmm. And, and just looked a little bit about how maybe their, their practices of how they did church, informed how they were encouraging.

This church to deal with the sin that was in their midst. Can you just talk a little bit about our practice of how we want to be the kind of church where people are safe to, to struggle mm-hmm. Um, increasingly, openly with their sin, because as you pointed out, we have been forgiven of our sins.

Mm-hmm. But that doesn't mean that we don't continue to be vulnerable to it. Mm-hmm. And all of us continue to sin and we don't wanna pretend like that doesn't exist. We also don't want to create an atmosphere where people feel like we started off talking about, feel like they're gonna be rejected for that.

Mm-hmm. Even while we hold. Believers to the standards that believers ascribe to.

Rick: You didn't give a lot of time to talk about this.

Svea: No, I know.

Rick: And

Svea: part, you've

Rick: part, you've

Svea: three sentences

Rick: part of part of my answer. You're gonna like, and part of it, you're not gonna like,

Svea: okay.

Rick: There are some things where we can be really patient with folks and there's some things where we can't.

Svea: Okay.

Rick: So like, say, let's say you had a problem with reacting. With physical violence whenever you were in a disagreement with someone. But we can't allow you to slowly progress that. Sure. Like, you just gotta stop slapping people in the office. Fair.

Svea: I can't believe you outed my sins right

Rick: there.

It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a binary, like you gotta stop.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: You just can't do that for the safety and wellbeing of others as well as for your own wellbeing, but you're, you're too big of a threat to other people, so you can't, so that's kind of stopped.

Svea: I have been working out lately,

Rick: but. It we're, we're reading play ball.

Yeah. But I'm, I'm just using somewhat of a silly and extreme scenario. That's true. There are certain

Svea: things that have to be addressed immediately

Rick: that you, but let's say, let's say S faa that you, you were. You carry some anxiety that's born out of some insecurity. Mm-hmm. And there are times in conversations that it just really makes it tough for you to listen to understand instead of listening to reply.

Mm-hmm. And sometimes you just talk over people. I don't make it, this is not my experience with you, I'm just using, uh, an example. I never do this, but I have heard of people who, who do it. Well, so. As your brother in Christ, I'm gonna say, Hey, how you know we're gonna talk? We're, we're just gonna, we're gonna just have a great con conversation about it.

And it's not like, that's not something that you can just stop. That's something you have to grow out of as you are growing into a greater understanding of who you are in Christ and being healed from the things that contributed to that and your past and learning to adopt some practices that help you, uh, mitigate against that tendency.

Yeah, like all. Yeah. Does that make sense there? There's some. I just one. I just wanna acknowledge that there are differences now. Probably what people are feeling more urgent. Rick, won't you talk to this in our church? If you are a leader of a ministry you, you are agreeing to certain things. If you become a, a member of our church, you are, you are agreeing to certain things.

We're not acting like, uh, holy Spirit, private eyes going around trying to figure out can we catch someone doing wrong? Mm-hmm. But when we become aware. The very first thing that we're gonna do is we're gonna, we're gonna engage in, in conversation. And so Speea, if it's you and, and me and, and you recognize that I'm doing something, you're probably gonna come and say, Hey, listen.

I got some concerns and, and mm-hmm. I've seen this and mm-hmm. And Rick, can I just ask you, what does it look like to follow Jesus with this area of your life? Mm-hmm. And I, I know you wanna follow Jesus and these are things that we've talked about before. I know this is what you're, but this seems to be outta step with that and, and you're gonna give me.

You're just gonna give me a chance to hear it, and you're gonna, you're gonna give me a chance to not just see from my own perspective, but to see from your perspective, and let's just say my own insecurity or my own pride or whatever, won't let you. Play that role in my life, really be my sister in Christ.

Well, then you're gonna go grab somebody else and then you both are gonna come back and, and talk to me. And then hopefully by that time, I'm like, yeah. I'm just like, it is dumb for me to hold onto this. I let's, I just kind of own it and correct and, and repent and move on. But let's say that, let's say that I don't, well now it, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a little bit more significant if you're in a small group.

You know, we might get people from your small group together. Right. Or maybe it goes to the, maybe it goes to the, to the elder board. We're not gonna bring somebody in front of all of the, in front of all of the church service, because not everybody who's at the church service is a part of our church.

Mm-hmm. This is part of where, like if we were a tiny church and everybody in the church is a follower of Jesus, well that's, that's one thing. Like if we met in a house and it's just 20 of us and we're all there because, you know what? They're trying to kill us for being Christians. And so like, if you're here, you're, you're legit here.

That's different than when you have I don't know, 1500 people come and some are trying to figure it out. Some are followers, some are not followers. Some don't even know if this is their church. Some are just like,

Svea: yeah,

Rick: our weekend worship services is not church. It's something our church does, but it's not who our church is.

Yeah. And so it's really important to not equate our worship service with necessarily what a church is. And so we're going to, we're gonna engage this in the. Appropriate relationships and environment.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And should we ever have to communicate something to the whole church to the everyone who's in attendance?

We will. And we do that whenever it's an elder or pastor level. And I think the Paso Paul has given us a roadmap for that in one Timothy, that if there's an elder and sin and that elder won't repent, then we. You bring it before everyone.

And so we've had to do that one time before.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Heartbreaking.

Svea: Yeah. But that is an important thing to just affirm that. Yeah. At, at greater responsibilities of leadership. Mm-hmm. There is greater amounts of accountability.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: And uh, and we do take that seriously here.

Rick: Oh yeah. So like, let's say someone is a, they're on the worship team and they're singing and they're, they're, they're leading songs and there's something about their, uh, their lifestyle that is contradicting the way of Jesus.

Well, pastor Ian's gonna go and, and chat with them and not to punish them mm-hmm. But just say, Hey, can we talk about this? 'cause he cares about them. Mm-hmm. And if they just kind of dig their heels in

and

Svea: it's an important discipleship issue.

Rick: Yeah. It's a, it is a discipleship issue. We care about their.

Wellbeing. It's not about our reputation, although it does intersect with our reputation. It's primarily about, uh, their wellbeing and others who are impacted by it. And let's say that doesn't go well, Ian's probably gonna connect with, get somebody else to connect with them. And if it still doesn't go well, then we're gonna have to say he can't be on the.

You, you, you can't be, you can't be on the team. And if they really get insurance, well, we might have to, we might ask the elder boards, Hey, listen, it seems like this might be a time for further church discipline, and we'll follow their lead on that. But these are just a couple of different ways that we might

Svea: mm-hmm.

Rick: We, we might exercise accountability, but it's almost always, Hey, I love you. You can count on me to be somebody in your life who's gonna love you enough to be honest with you. And I just gotta ask, what does it look like to follow Jesus in this area of your life?

Svea: Mm-hmm. Such a good question. Such a good question.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: First Corinthians is proving the, uh, the beauty in taking some time to preach through a book of the Bible mm-hmm. And all of the different issues mm-hmm. That come out of the text mm-hmm. As we walk through it chapter by chapter. Yeah. And, uh, the next few are no exception to

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: To that. So,

Rick: so this week is, is dealing with very intense conflict and poor.

Conflict management practices,

Svea: Uhhuh

Rick: and the church.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And uh, there are a couple of verses that have really gripped me and part, really, I just wish they weren't in the Bible, but we'll talk about that in the next sermon.