Church is Messy

CIM 02-04-26
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Svea: Well, welcome back to Church's Messy. It's been a couple weeks since we've gotten to sit down. You were doing some traveling. I was doing some traveling, and now that's right. We're finally back in the same place at the same time.

Rick: That's right. I'm not just back to podcasting. I've, uh, I've been back in the country for a week and it, uh, really feels good, uh, to be home.

And I gotta be honest with you, I kind of did miss winter weather. I'm not a, like a huge fan of the extreme winter weather. Uhhuh. I, I like it around zero or above zero. Uh, once it really starts to get. Uh, double digits below zero. Ah I'm not a happy camper.

Svea: That's hard.

Rick: Yeah. So I'm really liking this week.

This week is fantastic.

Svea: There are good things about winter. I like this. The snow can be pretty. I like excuses to drink hot beverages by the fire.

Rick: Oh, sure. Sure. Uh, dingo my trusted companion uhhuh my pop. Uh, he and I, we like to go scout hunting. Properties on Fridays, my, my day off. And it's fun this time of year because, uh, it's easy to see all kinds of tracks and you see how animals are moving right now, and that's lots of fun.

And this, this weekend, oh man, we had encounters with bald eagles and turkeys and deer and it was a lot of fun. So I'm, I'm really enjoying, really enjoying this time of year.

Svea: Nice.

Well, we're glad you're back. Uh, glad you had a good couple of weeks in Ghana.

Rick: Oh, they were great. They

Svea: were so good. Yeah. Nice opportunities to train pastors there. Mm-hmm. And love the partnership that we've had with the communities in Ghana. Absolutely. It's really exciting to build these longitudinal relationships.

With the church is there.

Rick: Yeah, I like that description. You know, I noticed that, uh, this is my third time going back to Ghana. I've been going, uh, uh, uh, for a number, number of years now, and the relationships are really deepening. Uh, I'm feeling much more comfortable in the sense that I feel like I understand the culture better, especially when I go into, to a new village.

I'm seeing things and understanding things, uh, that I didn't get the, that I didn't get the first time, and it's really. Helping smooth the way of communication and, oh man, do I love it?

Svea: Yeah,

Rick: absolutely

Svea: Love it. No, that's wonderful. But I know the last couple days of your trip were a little bit heavier than anticipated.

As things in Minnesota we're just getting weightier. With immigration, with ice issues, with protests,

Rick: with, it was hard to watch from afar.

Svea: Yeah,

Rick: I really just wanted to be here. Um, I wanted to be with some of you guys. I wanted to be with our congregation. And I, and I did not, I did not like the way that I felt being so far removed.

But I did have a little bit of time to just breathe and gather my thoughts and to be prayerful before reentering. Yeah. Um. What life is like right now.

Svea: Can you maybe just share your heart on that a little bit about, uh, wanting to respond and feeling that urge to respond, but also taking some time to breathe and not respond in an impulsive kind of way?

Rick: Sure. You know, I, I know that there were folks who were hoping that we would respond sooner. Um, and while that could be leveled as a criticism, I really take it as a, something that encourages me. 'cause it tells me that. That folks expect us to respond to important things and, uh, that maybe they believe that, that we have something helpful to contribute.

But being removed, man, it just, it forced me just to sit. In prayer and trust God. Mm-hmm. Um, and it did not allow me the illusion that whatever it is I bring to the table is enough. And sometimes I live in that delusion. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, I, I'm probably not the only one, but I wanna be honest about how sometimes it's just easy to think if I could be there, if I could do this, I could do that, that, that would be enough.

And really, it's never, it's never enough. While I've been told Rick, I don't understand what this phrase means, but I'm just gonna keep saying it. Hopefully one day somebody will understand it. Maybe somebody will figure out a way to say it better. We give our best, but we don't rely on our best. We really rely on the presence and the power of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Mm-hmm. And so sometimes I don't practice what I preach. Sometimes I kind of rely on what I think is my best and I wanna give my best, but rely on the presence and the power of the Holy Spirit. And that kinda short time away where I was having to sit with frustration helped me just to remember what a good place it is.

To depend on him and not myself.

Svea: Hmm. That sounds very healthy.

Rick: Okay, good.

Svea: So in that process of coming back, you decided this last weekend Yes. To set aside what was planned mm-hmm for the weekend services and the message that there was going to be in order to preach a special message addressing. Some of the issues facing us today.

Rick: Absolutely. And, and I had already been receiving some text messages and some emails, which I'm very grateful for and I was there too. Uh, but I'm hearing from folks saying, all right, here's our theme. First, be on your guard stand firm in the faith. Be greatest, be strong. Uh, do everything in love.

We're summarizing that as stand firm and fearless. But let love lead. So how do we do that now? Because it just feels like we need some clarity on that now.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: So it, uh, while there are. There is a fair perspective that says, Hey, this past weekend's message was kinda a standalone, didn't really fit in the series.

I see it as basically being a weekend of this is how we're applying the kind of thing mm-hmm. That we have already been thinking about and we're gonna continue to think about over a number of weeks,

Svea: just as an aside. Mm-hmm. You know, we often talk about how we plan messages out months to even over a year in advance and

Rick: sometimes 18 months in advance.

Yes.

Svea: And it just bolsters my faith. Mm-hmm. To see how God. Uh, inspires certain message series, whether and the key verse mm-hmm. And, and themes that we know we wanna bring out. Yeah. To see. We had no idea at the time how they would be applied No. In their current moment. No. But God knew.

Rick: Yeah. And you know, I alluded to it on, on Sunday morning where we picked this a, a year ago.

Uh, we decided sometime last year, let's call it church in the wild. We did not know that things would feel so topsy-turvy. Mm-hmm. Um, and really when we came up with that branding, it wasn't because the world around us is wild. It's just we all always live in a context in which it's used to be knocked off our feet by things happening around us and man, does it feel like that right now?

Svea: Yeah. Topsy-turvy is a good way of, of putting it. This idea that right now I think a lot of us are. Trying to navigate our way through a lot of big emotions. Oh, sure. And whether that's anxiety or whether it's anger mm-hmm. Or whether it's fear mm-hmm. Or just the uncertainty of what to do next. Could you maybe speak to a little bit about navigating these large emotions right now?

Rick: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's okay to give yourself space and time to feel what it is you feel being able to stand firm. And to be fearless and to lead with love that doesn't require, as a matter of fact, it, uh, it doesn't even want or ask for us to set our feelings aside or to suppress them and just move forward.

No, we. We gotta sit with them and we have to process them. And if someone were to say, well, how long should that take? Well, I don't know. I think it's probably a little bit different for each person, but it's gonna take some time and it probably takes a little bit more time, uh, than we want it to take.

And remembering that I think also should be paired with, we don't have to be quick to speak. We don't have to be quick to share an opinion or to give a viewpoint. It's okay just to say, I wanna sit with this. I don't wanna be prayerful, I don't wanna be contemplative. And I want to think we are not content creators.

Even, even as pastors who give sermons, we're not content creators. We're shepherds and our goal is to, become fully devoted followers of Jesus and to be formed to be more like him. That's the goal. If it's just about making statements or giving content, well, that's a totally different endeavor than what we are a part of.

Mm-hmm. And if the goal is to make content, then you don't have any time. You just gotta be at the ready and be in sync with every news cycle. But that's not what we're about. We are trying to respond Yes. In a, in a timely way with encouragement and clarity on how to. Follow Jesus right now in the midst of this mm-hmm.

Without losing our feet.

Svea: So how can our emotions help us do that in a productive way? Mm. Where, you know, maybe the anger that we're feeling Yeah. Or fears that we're feeling Yeah. Can point us to Jesus and help us see Yeah. How we wanna be more like him in this moment versus how can those, uh, emotions.

Be to our detriment.

Rick: I appreciate you asking me questions about things where I feel woefully inadequate and underqualified, but lemme just start here. And the this is the best that I have to give, the emotions that I have, the emotions that you have, they are indicators of what's going on inside of us.

They're more about us than they are about the outside world. And so if I'm feeling anxious, I'm gonna ask myself, okay, what is it that I, what is it that I'm anxious about? I want, I wanna dig into that. If I'm feeling angry, um, I wanna remember that's probably a secondary emotion. What is it that, what's beneath that?

You're, it, it's revealing something about me and. If I'm aware of that, and really, and I could be, I could spend some time in at, at prayer and, and seriously consider and evaluate that. And then I want to trust God with whatever's being revealed by what those emotions are indicating, our emotions, they're not.

They're not like a GPS, they're like gauges on the dashboard. Mm. They're telling us what's going on under the hood. And so now if there's something going on under the hood, I want to respond with truth. And I also wanna, I just wanna respond with faith and trust the way of Jesus.

Svea: Mm.

Rick: And so, I don't know if that sounds a little bit, you know, like word salad.

Help me if I'm not being clear enough. You always love to ask clarifying questions and I think that's helpful, but,

Svea: no, I love that line. Okay. You just gave of not a GPS, but the gauges on the dash. Yeah. I think that's really helpful.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Um, I, I've been trying to think myself in these last few days, couple last couple weeks.

Mm-hmm. I wonder what Jesus would be praying Mm. In these moments.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And as I feel my own emotions kind of cycling through different things. Mm-hmm. Wondering how would Jesus be feeling? Yeah. What would his predominant feeling be?

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And how, what would he do with that? Mm. Would that be something that's driving him to a certain action?

Would it be something that would drive him to a quiet garden where he could just. Process it with his father. Um, and, and I've found just that little mental exercise of kind of removing myself from the picture and trying to picture what Jesus would do has been really helpful.

Rick: What a great exercise to, to use a biblical imagination.

I would imagine, uh, that there would be times maybe of quiet prayer in a garden and maybe hoping that other people would join him in prayer. And I think there would be times that he would stand in a place where he could see the city and he would weep over the city.

Svea: Yeah. So thinking of some of the things that we know that Jesus did mm-hmm.

In some charge situations. I wanna ask you about a point that you made in the message Okay. That I thought was a really, really important point about how we conduct ourselves in something like a protest.

Rick: Sure.

Svea: And you pointed out that protests is, uh, in the fabric of our branch of the church, that we are the Protestant church that was literally founded on idea.

We have a long

Rick: history

Svea: of protesting, protest.

Rick: Yeah, we have a long history of protesting civil disobedience, all of that. Yeah.

Svea: Yeah. So that's not a foreign concept or incompatible,

Rick: but it might feel distant.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: It might feel distant to some of us,

Svea: but I think you raised in a really important point about there's a difference between protesting in.

In a, a civil and a dignified and a principled way.

Rick: Oh, that's right.

Svea: From protesting. That looks more like having a tantrum.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: But here's the question I wanna ask you. Uh, I've seen a number of, of Christian people that I respect online kind of debating. How to protest something. Mm-hmm. Even as a Christian and pointing out that Jesus even at times conducted himself with some behavior that might fall under what seems like the tantrum category.

Like when he went into the, the temple and he saw the money changers there and he literally started flipping tables.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Um, to, to make a large statement. About, uh, yes you did. This is not okay, and I am not tolerating it. And it went far beyond just, yeah. Holding a sign and having a quiet dialogue.

Rick: So let's, let me say why.

Let me refer back to why I called the, uh, protests that the headline making protests of today, uh, why I refer to them as tantrums. If you, from the framework of the Civil Rights Movement, it began with an investigation. Are there actually injustices taking place? I think that's a great. Great place to start.

No one wants to be duped. No one wants to be fooled. No one wants to be caught somewhere down the road, and you've engaged in in all of this direct action. And lo and behold, you were just wrong. So it's good to investigate first. Second is negotiation. That's where you approach the people who are involved and the people who can do something about it.

And you try to, uh, talk your way through to a solution. Um, you raise awareness, you talk about it and, and you see if there is a way to collaborate together to make things right. And you might discover that people would say, oh my goodness, yeah, let's work on that. And you might discover that people are not interested, but the next step.

Then is a self purification. This is really this, we might talk about character formation here at our church. We talk about spiritual formation. And for those in the civil rights movement, it was a very, very rigorous effort to make sure that they were prepared to stay the course of peace and justice.

They weren't pursuing revenge. They were pursuing reconciliation. I love how Dr. King stated that they were laying their case before the conscience of the local and national community. Um, they would do that through direct action. Sometimes that would be a protest, sometimes that would be civil disobedience, but it was always peaceful and it never attacked the dignity of anyone, of any of anyone else.

And so, and these, uh. But are labeled protests, what I would say are tantrums. We see people shouting, profanity, we see people acting. Yes, emotionally. It's not wrong to show your emotions, but it, it seems to be emotions without careful. Thought demeaning, the dignity of those believed to be in the wrong.

You would never have seen that endorsed by the leaders in the Civil rights movies. You don't get to demean somebody else's dignity because you disagree with them. The whole point is everyone has dignity and we honor that all the time. Even when we, disagree, absolutely no violence, absolutely no destruction of pro of property.

There might be something disrupted, but if it is disrupted, again, it's done in such a way that it is advocating for peace and justice for all. So yeah, what we're seeing today has nothing to do with that. And I would never say, of course, I would not say, uh, that Jesus threw a tantrum. You go back and you read the account.

Jesus didn't walk in and just lose his mind and all of a sudden start flipping tables. He sat down. Calm and collected, and he braided leather together to make a whip. It was careful, it was calculated and it was intentional, and it is okay to respond with energy. It's okay to respond with emotion, but it's not okay to only respond with emotion.

And a careful reading of the account shows that that's not what Jesus did. He walked into a place where he saw it was not, it was a gross offense. Against the name of God. And it was a gross injustice against people who were being taken, taken advantage of and exploited for the greed of, uh, those money changers in the temple.

And they were, they were engaging in all kinds of, uh, shady practices. And by the way. They used the space that was dedicated for Gentiles to come and pray, and they pushed them out so that they could, through dishonest means, make more money for themselves. Mm-hmm. It is nasty. And it is grotesque and it is evil what they were doing.

And it is appropriate for Jesus to do what he did, but it wasn't. And all of the sudden impulsive, emotionally driven thing. Mm-hmm. He was

Svea: careful and I think that's, that's a really important point. Yeah. That gets overlooked that his actions were not impulsive. Mm-hmm. It wasn't that he was flying off the handle.

Mm-hmm. Or just the anger of the moment got the better of him. Mm-hmm. And he couldn't resist reacting out of that, but Absolutely. But instead it was. Thought through.

Rick: Yeah. And if

Svea: someone, it was,

Rick: yeah,

Svea: it was intentional,

Rick: absolutely. If someone said, well, listen, Jesus disrupted, but the closest analog to a church service, so maybe it, you can't, how could you say it's wrong to disrupt a church service?

Well, I don't, I think there are times it would be appropriate to disrupt a church service. But what we saw recently would be very, would, very inappropriate, and we could come up with scenarios. I mean, imagine that, uh, we are, we're sitting in, in the service and you and I are sitting on the, on the same row and we have a guest speaker come in and that guest speaker starts spouting lies and, and heretical statements and saying things that are absolutely not true.

Somebody's gotta get up and say, Hey, okay, we're gonna shut this down right now. Mm-hmm. This isn't true. And I know that this is awkward, but let me tell you why we're stopping. And why this is inappropriate. I'm gonna ask you to step off the stage. You cannot teach anymore. This is wrong. Everyone would feel all kinds of feels in that moment, and none of the feelings would feel good.

And it would feel very disruptive, and yet it would be the right thing to do. Yeah. So, moving forward to another section of the sermon that mm-hmm. I think was another one of those really important. Points that you made.

Okay.

Svea: Uh, but one that has inspired at least a couple of questions Okay.

From people that have written in, um, seeking a little bit more clarification mm-hmm. On what you meant. Uh, you pointed to a proverb, Proverbs 22, 3, that says the prudency danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty.

Rick: That's right. And that was a section we were talking about, some just foolish and dangerous behavior.

Svea: And your point was mm-hmm. Don't be foolish and seek to provoke the situation. Yeah. In a way that puts yourself in danger. That's right. Unnecessarily. That's right. And without principle. And without cause, but just, you know, literally just poking the bear. I used to tell my kids, don't be dumb.

Rick: You're going out tonight. Just don't be dumb. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the way that I understood it was you're just saying keep your head about you.

And it was in the context primarily of encounters with law enforcement. And so, and if you, there was one statement that I had on Saturday night that I took out because I thought, understandably, it confused folks.

And so what you see on the video and what you heard on both services on Sunday morning was, uh, it is foolish and dangerous to engage in behavior. It's trying to intimidate law enforcement. It is foolish and danger, dangerous to engage in aggressive behavior that makes them think that their safety is at risk.

When you are an encounter with law enforcement, it is foolish and dangerous to walk, run, or drive away. And again, those are not blame statements. I'm just saying that if you engage in this kind of behavior, the reason it's foolish and dangerous is because it is very common that someone gets hurt in that scenario.

So don't do that. I'm not saying. I'm not saying that. Therefore, uh, you should do everything a law enforcement officer tells you to do. If you're standing on the sidewalk and you're filming with your phone from across the street and a law enforcement officer doesn't like it, and they walk over and they say, put your phone down that would be a violation of your civil rights.

You don't have to do that. I don't even know if that's like the technical legal thing, but anyway, it's not legal for them to tell you. Not to do that. You have the freedom to do that. So it'd be totally fine to say, I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue to do this. But to be respectful as, as you do, that would not be a violation of what I talked about in the sermon on Sunday.

Is that helpful? Have I muddied the waters? Have, have I helped bring a little bit more clarity? What do you think?

Svea: Well, I think, I think the waters are muddy, just in general. Mm-hmm. On this kind of thing. One of the questions that came in, I think where it's coming from. It, there are acts of danger.

Mm-hmm. And standing up mm-hmm. To. Authorities. Yeah. Or law enforcement or whatever the case may be. Yeah. That may put someone in harm's way. Um, the person who wrote this question was trying to reconcile this idea of not just going into danger and yet, you know, when you look back on history, even the case of like Martin Luther King Jr.

Writing from the jail, um, he knew he was walking into trouble Ah, okay. In what he was doing. Yeah. Um, how do you square this idea with lots of. Actions initiated from faith. You know, for example, Bonhoeffer the, uh, sure. The people who hid the Jews mm-hmm. Uh, during World War ii, they were very much intentionally violating the, the law enforcement procedures around them and pursuing danger in that.

Rick: Gotcha. You, so, I'm gonna give an answer when first it's, uh, first it's the principle and it's gonna feel like a cop out. But the more you think about it, I think the more you're gonna say, ah, yeah, I think this is helpful. Uh, number one is we're trying to live by wisdom, not rules. You're never gonna come up with enough rules that are gonna be able to account for every single situation, but you wanna live with wisdom.

And so you gotta understand that there, that there's nuance and you gotta remember that context. You know, like at Romans 13, you have the Apostle Paul saying, obey the authorities and acts. You have an apostle saying, listen, we obey. We obey God, not manmade laws. What you have to understand is read those in context and read like an adult and understand understand the, the nuance involved and that they're not contradicting each other.

I was talking primarily about an encounter with law enforcement. Not every, a certain kind of encounter with law enforcement. Not every encounter when law enforcement, and when I say there's foolish and dangerous behavior that is not saying. Never do anything dangerous. There are lots of things in life that are dangerous that we absolutely should do.

Uh, loving someone has a bit of danger in it because they could break your heart and yet you should love. Mm-hmm. Uh, when the group that was led by Dr. King and others crossed the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama, it was dangerous, especially when there were police dogs who were unleashed on those who were just peacefully.

Walking and those dogs began biting them. That is dangerous, but that would not be a violation of foolishness of Proverbs 22 or anything that we talked about on Sunday. That's a totally different thing. It wasn't foolish. But it was, it was dangerous and it was not unnecessarily dangerous. That context was specifically about foolish and unnecessarily dangerous behavior.

Svea: So as I'm trying to just wrap my head around this a little bit, mm-hmm. Is this concept or the paradigm mm-hmm. Of foolish. And wisdom.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Is that the helpful handholds? Yeah. For me to grab onto here that danger. Yeah. Think about foolish and isn't the issue. Yeah. It's Is this foolish danger or wise danger?

Rick: It's foolish to engage in unnecessarily dangerous behavior, but the primary paradigm is foolishness versus wisdom.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Or the primary dichotomy is foolishness versus wisdom

Svea: that squares so well with the theme verse. Yeah. With this idea of standing firm in the faith of being courageous,

Rick: listen, if there wasn't anything, if there wasn't anything dangerous, you wouldn't need courage,

Svea: right?

Rick: Of course, it's dangerous, but also doing all of that in love grounds us in what's our why.

Yeah.

Svea: What's the purpose of why we are doing something? If we're engaging in foolish behavior, that's likely not loving. That's right. If we're engaging in something that may be dangerous. Yeah. But it's for the purpose of showing love.

Mm-hmm. To a fellow image bearer. That's right. We're probably on a much better track.

Rick: Absolutely. So, I love the question, I appreciate the person asking it. I appreciate that they're listening, uh, that they're, that they're working through it and giving us an opportunity, uh, to provide a little bit, a bit of more clarity.

And, you know, I said offhand to you, uh, earlier in the day, Faye, that this is why people write books. 'cause you can never say everything that, that that should be said in just one. Sermon, uh, but we're saying everything that, uh, that we think has to be said in that moment. Yeah.

Svea: So I wanna read another question.

Okay. That we received that was looking at this topic from a little bit different angle.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And this person on this same section, in this idea of engaging in foolish behavior rights actions were cited, such as making law enforcement feel threatened or afraid. Great point. But you didn't mention any actions by ICE that are unwise.

Like one stopping non Caucasians and asking for papers to prove citizenship or two. Mm-hmm. Profiling people and stopping non Caucasians.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Do you wanna address

Rick: Sure.

Svea: That aspect

Rick: of it? Yeah. And look, and so that, I don't think that was an, it wasn't like an oversight. It wasn't like, oh yeah, I should have said that.

No, I intentionally did not, did not talk about those things. I've heard this many times. Sometimes it's been folks who've said it to me directly. I, I think it's true. A good communicator knows his or her material. A great communicator knows their audience. I was speaking to issues that relate to those in the room.

To the best of my knowledge, there's nobody in in our congregation who is a part of ice. And even if they were ICE officers, uh, the ICE officers who are on the ground enacting this, they're not the ones who are crafting the policies and. And giving the directives on how to go about that. That's people who are much higher up and they're just, I don't have an audience with them.

And they're not, they're not who I'm talking to, so, I'm talking to our folks, especially as they might encounter ice officers in the streets of Rochester. That does happen. Just, hey, just remember that if you're an encounter, don't try to intimidate, don't engage in aggressive behavior, and if you are stopped with him and an encounter, don't walk around or drive away.

If, listen, if something goes south because you violated one of those things, again, it's not blame, but you did engage in foolish and dangerous behavior. Now I'm not given, uh, uh, because I'm not speaking to ice. I don't have anything for them, and I'm not sure if it's correct to put those things in the category of wise or foolish or to put those, uh, in the category of just unjust.

Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. And really that's less for the officers on the streets and more for the people in the offices who are giving the guidelines and the directives. But if I had a chance to sit down, um, with those, um, in the offices who, who wear suits and not uniforms, who are making the directives and the guidelines and, and all of that, I would say.

We, yes, we absolutely need safe and secure, secure borders. Yes, every just law that we have needs to be in, needs to be enforced. I don't believe it is to anyone's benefit to engage in rhetoric that is unnecessarily inflammatory. An example of, uh, something outside of context. This looks harm. Harmless DHS posts on their social media account.

Good morning, Minneapolis. That's innocuous. What could, what's the harm in that? However, when that is posted on the first day that ice is deployed to Minneapolis after there has already been much inflammatory rhetoric, it feels like it's throwing a log on the fire. Mm-hmm. Not dousing the fire. So I would say that's not helpful.

I would say absolutely officers need to be, officers need to be protected. But what we are used to is our local police force, our, uh, the Sheriff's department FBI agents, other agencies, unless they are engaged in some sort of like SWAT team initiative, uh, they're wearing uniforms that are clearly marked with name badges and you can see their faces and it doesn't feel.

It doesn't feel like an occupying force. It feels like they're there to serve and protect. And so the way that ICE presents themselves and again, I'm talking to suits and offices, not to the officers on the street. I said changing that could go a long way. And helping people feel like this is for their good, not for their harm.

And then I would say when an incident happens, step to the mic. And please say we regret this incident. We grieve it and we are engaging in a thorough investigation. And at the conclusion of that investigation, we'll make a report instead of leading with a narrative. That is obviously not true.

That's not helpful. So if I could have a conversation with people who wear suits and not uniforms, those would be some of the things I'd wanna talk about.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. Uh, I wanna pivot us back to our own congregation.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: We're a big tent of a church.

Rick: Yeah, we

are.

Svea: We have. Just a whole spectrum mm-hmm.

Of thoughts and experiences mm-hmm. And perspectives on this topic and, and every topic for that matter. Mm-hmm. And it's one of the things we love about our church. Love it. Absolutely love it. Yeah. That, that we, um, and it's one of the reasons we talk so often about unity, uh, because we celebrate being a church of diversity and yet wanting to be united in our identity in Christ.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, and we're a church where in our very visions. Statement. We talk about wanting to be a church of all cultures. Yep. And we celebrate that. Mm-hmm. And could you just address some of the things that could help us given how many different backgrounds, perspectives, cultures that all of the different things that our whole congregation contributes.

On the, on one level, if we didn't maintain our unity in Christ mm-hmm. We could be kind of a Tinder box for sure. For all of the different thoughts Yeah. That are there. But we also have the opportunity in a positive way to be a picture of what it looks like to be united. Oh yeah. Um, as we walk forward in this, even if we don't all agree mm-hmm.

About things, we could still be focused on Jesus and keep that as our central focus. Can you address that a little bit with maybe some. Some ways that we can have our diversity and the range that we represent be a positive factor in this time.

Rick: I think one you could begin with a position of or disposition of gratitude that is highly informed by a chapter like Romans 14, that God has given us the latitude.

To have different viewpoints that are deeply held while still remaining united, uh, by something that's deeper still. And we are united by our faith in Jesus, by our inclusion of Jesus, we're gonna cling to the first principles and we've trusted in him and we declare that he died on our behalf and he rose from the dead.

And that's what unites us. And there are secondary things where we are given the freedom to, to disagree, just like, man, isn't that great? That, that we can experience that. Number two choose not to see people as a viewpoint. Choose to see them as complex people who are made in the image of God, who have a variety of experiences and that have led them to process information in such a way that they landed at a different spot than you.

Can. I just kinda see more than just the bottom line. Your point lead with seeking to. Understand before trying to be understood. Remember, we don't always have to, we don't always have to talk about it. We just listen. I know. I just, I'm the guy on the microphone and I was just talking about, but we don't always have to talk about, we could talk about the the, the most important things and when we have to talk about it, talk about it.

I think those are some things to to begin with. And and when, when someone believes something that's just different from you and, and you feel, you feel charged up, just be like, huh. Alright. I wonder why I feel so charged up. Why is it that I'm feeling the way that I feel and, uh, 'cause maybe that's saying more about you than it is about the other person.

That's okay. I would start. Those are some, those are a few things that I would start with and, and just remember heaven is going to be an incredibly diverse place and let's just resolve right now. Well, we're not going to wait until then. To really grab hold of the unity that's already been given us in Christ.

We're gonna go ahead and start living like we believe that it's true. Am I doing a good enough job? Is that vague?

Svea: I got, I got one more.

Rick: Is that vague? Pastor, talk

Svea: one, one more topic for you to, to sort through here. Yeah. And I just would love to hear your heart for. People in our congregation who, and I heard this phrase last night at our prayer meeting and I loved it, who are Americans by choice.

Oh, yeah. Rather than Americans by birth. We've got I don't think it would be an overestimate to say hundreds of people. In our, in our church that are Americans by choice.

Rick: Absolutely. Yeah.

Svea: Including, you know, serving all the way at the top levels of leadership on our elder board. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and we very much value having people who are here with us from other cultures.

Mm-hmm. Um, to people who are just navigating these days with. With challenges and uh, and maybe some fear and trepidation. Um, can you just speak to them?

Rick: I'm glad you're here. I'm so glad you're here. And, uh, man, I really want our church to be a place of rest. Where you can feel at ease and where you are reminded every time you walk through the doors, uh, that your heavenly father sees you and loves you, and that, uh, the people here want you and are so glad that you're here.

Uh, we would be incomplete without you and I, the fear makes sense to me. It's not something that I have to live with. But it makes sense to me. But I wanna cling to this, that love casts out fear. And so would you just really let yourself feel how much we love you. But even more important than that, how much your heavenly Father loves you.

And if you ever feel like there's something we're missing, listen, I, let me tell you something. I'm blind to a lot of things and not because I want to be. I just am. And so feel free. To grab me in the lobby, write me an email, give me a call or any of our pastors and just say, Hey, this would help me. And if I'm not helpful, I hope it's more likely be, I hope it's more so that it's because I'm ignorant instead of, uh, intentionally unhelpful.

I really do want to be helpful, and I know that what I'm saying. Uh, there are hundreds and hundreds of other people who would shout. Me too. We love you. We're glad you're here. Know that you're loved by us, know that you're loved by your Heavenly Father, and there's something we're missing that could be helpful.

Please let me know. And, uh, so let me add on to this. I know a lot of people are probably wondering because of actions we've taken in the, in the past and how we try to marshal our resources and efforts. When is our church going to launch some sort of program? I don't think it's necessary for us to reinvent the wheel.

There are so many organizations who are doing great stuff right now. I want our congregation to feel empowered to go and participate. If you feel like you need permission, I give you permission, but you don't need my permission. Just go, uh, just go regardless of if you're, if you're dropping off, uh, donations at some place or if you're, if you're partnering with food distribution, if whatever you're doing.

Listen, you don't need permission. You are empowered. Uh, just go be involved. And I would much rather that because when you're out there and people ask you, why'd you get there? You could just say, listen, I know what it's like to be loved and I wanna share that love, uh, with other people. Jesus has transformed my life.

And man, I just, I, I just wanna share that kind of love with other people too.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our mission here is to lead people to be a fully devoted follower That's right. Of Jesus. And as we do that, the way that we live our life shows our devotion to him. Mm-hmm. And this is an incredible opportunity for all of us to go and be the hands and feet of Jesus in our community.

Rick: We'll, uh, we'll put together initiatives when, uh, we think it's the kind of thing that, uh. Where there's, there's a missing piece and we can, we can fill that missing piece. We think it's the kind of thing that only we can do, or it's something that we absolutely have to do, but there are so many ways to get involved right now.

I don't think that we could create something that is as good or better. So I say go get involved.

Svea: Mm-hmm. Now, one of the things that we. Can do here. Mm-hmm. And that, I think, does uniquely fall on the church's responsibility is to be a praying church. Mm-hmm. You know, I like the phrase that you kind of let us sit with a little bit of.

Mm-hmm. Like, why would God use a church that isn't a praying church?

Rick: Yeah. Why would God bother use a church that can't be bothered to pray?

Svea: Yeah. And so we had our prayer meeting mm-hmm. Yesterday afternoon. And boy, my soul was encouraged by that. It felt wonderful to just hear the, the kind of background d the buzz of prayer in the room.

Yeah. That was a beautiful sound. Yeah. As we wrap up this, uh, this episode today, would you just close us in a prayer for our, our city and our I will, our church, our community today?

Rick: Yeah. Heavenly Father, uh, I'm so glad that we can come to you and, uh, God, you are strong. You are the rock. And uh, we can be courageous, not because of how brave we are, uh, but because of how good and strong uh, you are and we are safely at rest in your hands.

And, uh, would you help us to remember that it's you? Uh, that we are standing firm on. And, uh, the strength that we have comes from you. Uh, when we are weak, you are strong. And, uh, we're able to love because we have been loved. God, thank you for all of that. And as we kinda step out when we go to work, when we're in our neighborhoods, we're with our friends.

When we're, uh, doing the things that we're doing and we recognize an opportunity, God, I pray that we would see it as an opportunity and not as. A burden, God, that, uh, we would remember just how, uh, loved we have been, how loved we are, and that would squeeze out and push out any fear that might be lurking in the crevices of our hearts and that we would know that we are empowered not because of, uh, any person or church or somebody who, uh, gave us the thumbs up or certificate of approval, but because your spirit is with us.

In us, uh, making us able to move out and be lights, lights that shine in the darkness, may we be gripped by that. And God, may we be deeply motivated and eager, uh, to live out, uh, the love that we've received. God made this drive us to be people of prayer who, uh, feel a hunger to be with Jesus even more, a desire to become even more like him, and so that we can begin to do as we did.

We're gonna give our best, but we're not gonna trust in our best. We're trusting in the presence and the power of the Holy Spirit. God, what you do in and through us, even beyond what we know how to ask or could even imagine, is in the name of Jesus we pray. Amen.