Church is Messy

Church Is Messy, 04-22-2026 Ep141
===

Svea: Hello, Rick. We're back with Church's Messy and another installment in our church in the Wild Series through First Corinthians and another one on what a fun topic. Sexuality.

Rick: Yeah, and marriage. Super fun. People were like high fiving me afterwards, they were like, oh, yes, can I just come back for , another service to just hang out and, and listen to this again?

It was, it was amazing

Svea: seriously. What kind of reactions are you noticing from people both, either while you're seeing faces in the congregation or in the lobby afterwards?

Rick: Well, as I'm talking, I, I really try to be care. I always love to look people in the eye. I, I, I love to, I love to try and connect with people while I'm preaching.

This is this week and the previous week. I feel a little bit hesitant to do that because I never want people to feel. If I'm talking about something that's a bit challenging or tender uhhuh, and there's some, there was some, there's some sensitive subject matter. Sure. In, in this sermon.

I don't want people to feel like I'm putting attention like you're looking

Svea: directly

Rick: at them. That's, yeah, that's right. And so I'm it's my attempt at empathy. I heard empathy was a good idea and I thought, well, lemme try it. Um, but, uh, I have

Svea: Add that to the emotional health you're working on.

Rick: Yeah, I have, I have fewer conversations with folks.

In the lobby.

Svea: Sure.

But maybe some more emails than typical.

Rick: I, you know, I thought that would happen, but not really.

Svea: Okay.

Rick: But I did have some really good conversations. You know, not this week, but the previous week, there are a number of, uh, senior citizens that came up to me like, man, I'm really glad you gave that sermon for the younger folks.

I'm like, well, you know, I used to work in a pretty swanky retirement home and this is a sermon for everybody. Yeah. Based on my experience and like. Yeah, you're right.

Svea: Nice.

Rick: And they just walked on. So

Svea: you see how many people can get you to blush while you're trying to get them to blush.

Rick: I wasn't trying to get 'em to blush, I was just trying to say it's not, it's not demographic specific.

Svea: Sure.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Sure.

Well, this week the focus was more on the marriage aspect of sexuality rather than last week was more about kind of how we approach our bodies.

Rick: That's right.

Svea: And, uh, and this week marriage and then next week blends into singleness.

Rick: That's right. And so we'll just leave that for the, for the coming week.

But the Corinthian church, they just had some ideas that were. Probably just very weird to us. Mm-hmm. And I get the sense that Paul probably thought it was weird, but I don't know, maybe, maybe he didn't, just historically speaking, um, through that time period, you, you look in medieval times also there was this sense, uh, in Christian history of people wrestle through this idea is, am I holier?

If. I don't engage in, in physical aspect of, of intimacy and, and there's nothing in the gospel that supports that. Mm-hmm. But it is an idea that people have wrestled with. We're at the opposite end of the spectrum now. Now we live in a, in, in a cultural moment where people are thinking, how could that have any relation?

Whatsoever. And so there are probably far too many followers of Jesus who are giving themselves license to engage in a lifestyle that doesn't fall under his kingship and his leadership.

Svea: Sure. Can you maybe speak a little bit more about,

Rick: I can always speak more.

Svea: Yes. I've noticed Have,

Rick: have you met me?

Svea: It, it's a, it, it's a very good skill for your vocation.

Rick: My job comes with a microphone, Faye, I can always speak more.

Svea: All right. So demonstrate it. So speak more uhhuh to the line that you had about the danger in either weaponizing or spiritualizing

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Your sexuality in marriage.

Rick: Yeah. And so, I does the weaponization, does it sort of speak for itself

Svea: about kind of using it in a manipulative way?

Rick: Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, uh, there are times that, I mean, I. We are a family friendly podcast. It is the church's messy podcast, but I, I want to go, I wanna be ankle deep, right? Mm-hmm. I don't even wanna be shin deep and, and how we, how we talk about the specificity, but there are things about that you can, you can engage in it in order to gain the upper hand or to gain something you want.

Mm-hmm. Or you can withhold in order to gain the upper hand or to gain something you want. And there are all kinds of reasons. There are all kinds of factors going on. Like if I knew, if that's you and I knew your story, I would probably say, well, I kinda, I understand how you get there. Like, you're not a bad person.

You may not even have bad intentions. You are trying to, to just to respond the best way that you can in a situation that feels difficult to you, but is not good for you, and it's not good for the other.

Right? Mm-hmm. And so the answer is not just more sheet music. The answer is. To understand covenant love.

On the spiritual spiritualizing we wanna resist that somehow this contaminates or, or pollutes our spiritual life, that this is a gift of God and it should be received as a gift of God. And just like if you go camping, you probably love a rip roaring fire. Or if you have a fireplace on a cold day and you want a cozy environment, you want a rip roaring fire in the fire fireplace, you just want the fire.

In the right context. Mm-hmm. Once the fire is outta context, it can create all kinds of havoc and problems. It's the same way with this incredible gift from God. So we wanna see you for what it is, how he intended it, and we don't wanna alize it and, and attach weird, trumped up ideas to it. And we certainly don't wanna weaponize it because when we do either one of those things, we end up hurting ourselves.

We end up hurting the other, and we hurt this incredibly profound relationship we call marriage.

Svea: Yeah. Well, I loved kind of the way that you were pointing to the purpose of this passage mm-hmm. In Paul calling us to this more selfless approach of wanting the best for the other rather than trying to be transactional.

And I'm gonna get what I want. And in this idea of a marriage that is more of a covenant mm-hmm. Uh, than a conquest. Yeah. Uh, talk, talk more about this picture of this, of covenantal marriage.

Rick: So if we talk about it, we gotta include. The word trust. It is not, Hey, I am just gonna be your doormat for the rest of, for the rest of my life or the rest of your life, or however death does this part.

That is not what it is. It's, it's, I happily place you above me. And by the way, that should be all of our relationships in the church submit to one another out of reverence for Christ, we. This is the default approach to all relationships in the way of Jesus. That's now we're applying it to marriage.

Mm-hmm. And by the way, according to the Apostle Paul in Ephesians chapter five, your marriage, if you're a follower of Jesus, your marriage is a living metaphor of the gospel. And so don't you want it to be just the best, the greatest experience possible? 'cause after all, it is supposed to tell the good news.

So we want you to have a good experience. So here we go. You gotta have trust. You're not gonna be a doormat, but it's, I'm just placing you above me. And I trust you. I trust you that you are approaching me the same way, and that you care about the needs that I have and the ones that I have. And by the way, we're not just talking about Boun chick.

Aah. We're talking about all of life, right? We're talking about the holistic person. Mm-hmm. We're, we're, we're, we're engaging all of that. And so there's this incredible foundation of trust. So how does this bring in folks who are single? If you have not yet said I do, to someone you need to be evaluating, can I trust someone?

The people who I date, the people who I grow in my relationship with, the people who I might, the, the, I'm saying people, the person that I might be walking toward the altar with. Are they the kind of, is this the kind of person who I can trust in that way? And so you should evaluate that. I mean, it's the easiest thing in the world is just to date for fun and to see what happens.

But I think a careful person, a, an intentional person, a wise person is considering those things as well.

So lemme just kinda stop there.

Svea: Yeah. Because flesh that out a little bit more because Okay. On one hand we are casting this vision for people mm-hmm. To approach their marriage as a way of just demonstrating love and care for the other person's needs.

Mm-hmm. Uh, regardless of what they're getting in return, in the same way that God loves us, that way that he has promised his covenantal love towards us. Mm-hmm. Even when we are, uh, not his, not the easiest people to love.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: So God models that for us. And so that's, uh, the way we can play that role in modeling that for our spouse as well.

Mm-hmm. Um, so when you say as just single person and you're looking at, at, uh, potential. Life partners mm-hmm. To see is this the kind of person who would be engaged in that? Yeah. It seems like there could be a little danger. And so is this the person who's going to meet my needs with great, uh, generosity.

Rick: Think, think about it like this. Can I trust this person with my full self? Can I, is this the kind of person that I can trust with shields down?

You know, is this the kind of person who I can be vulnerable, vulnerable with? And that's a, that is an, that's an appropriate question to ask.

And it is not a, Hey, how can I get them to meet my needs? It's, it's, I used to ask, when I did premarital counseling, I don't do premarital counseling anymore. I would ask couples, why do you wanna get married? Why do you wanna marry this person? And in invariably, every single time they would come back, I'd give them that assignment.

They'd come back with a list of all the things that person did for them. Mm-hmm. And then they would share that in front of each other. And it was wonderful. And we'd have just a really nice moment and I'd say, I really, did you hear what she just said? You know about what you do for her? Did you hear what he just said?

Wow, that's perfect. You guys have something really special and And I have a great moment 'cause I'm not trying to do a gotcha Uhhuh, but there is a Gotcha. And I would pause and say. Lemme tell you what I didn't hear, and I bet it's in there. I bet you what I'm gonna say next. I bet it's in your heart and soul.

What I did not hear is what you want to do for the other person.

How you wanna serve them. Now, I'm sure it's in there but isn't it interesting that it's never what comes out first? So that just tells me is that we really have to spend time thinking about that and being very intentional.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: About it. Yeah. And it's easy for the other thing to take priority. And then if we're not careful, we're going to slip into a conquest, a conquest approach.

Svea: Yeah. So the, the single person has the opportunity of being kind of reflective and of Yes. And evaluating mm-hmm. The potential of someone before they're married, but speak to the person who's already married.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And maybe they're in a difficult marriage right now. Yeah. And feeling like, I'm not sure I can trust my spouse with this kind of approach.

Rick: Trust. Trust just may be low. It just may be low, and if trust is low, there, there are probably a number of reasons that trust is low. And before I say anything else, let me just remind everyone.

We're not talking about, uh, a marriage that's in a difficult place because of biblical grounds for divorce. We're not talking about abandonment, neglect. Abuse or infidelity. What we're talking about right now we're talking to people who are not in that scenario. So if you're in that scenario, if that's, or you're picking up pieces from some of those things, just know that what we're saying is not directed at that.

So if you're, you're in a marriage and, and it's struggling and you're, you're trust is, oh, I'm sure that you have understandable reasons that you don't need to justify. You don't need to validate. They're just they're there. The trust is low, but trust is a choice. Being trustworthy is a choice, and trusting is a choice.

Mm-hmm. And what you have to decide is if you're, if you're in that is are you willing to do that or not? And the other person has to decide if they're willing to do that or not. And so I began talking about the word trust, but now I wanna bring in a different word, and this word is humility.

And I don't think we ever go wrong if we start just owning our side of the street.

I used to do a little bit of marriage counseling and Faye I just got, I just got enough bad stories that I'm just like, I'll meet with somebody one time and I'm just like, I, I'm trying to be a gateway uhhuh to, to, to a great counselor,

Svea: to, to good referrals.

Rick: I might have some skills in life.

This is not my skill in life. Mm-hmm. Um, I remember one time I was talking to a couple and I just said, oh, I just. Why do, why does it feel like I care more about your marriage than you do? Mm-hmm. And they received that Well, I mean, but it was just like, it was like a war zone in my office. There's one time, there's, there's a couple and I'm just like, you know, I'm not, I just don't think we can meet anymore.

I want you to meet with a counselor. And they're like, oh, we just need your help. We can't go see a counselor right now. And, and they were just in this cycle of. Of argument and it was hard to understand reality. I'm like, well, the next time you guys kind of get into a fight, you could record it and send it to me and we could talk about it.

Mm-hmm. And they did it. Oh,

Svea: wow.

Rick: And they, they were in the, they were driving down the highway and like she was pressing his buttons and he was driving and I can hear the engine revving.

Svea: Oh, wow.

Rick: And they send me this recording. I'm like, someone is going to. Die. Oh. And I'm like, I could see it coming. He's about to explode.

And sure enough he explodes. And I'm just like, God, help me get them to someone. Yeah. Who can help? I just got bad stories, but here's, here's something that I used to do and I learned this from somebody else. And when he told when, when he shared it, he said it never worked for him, but I was just dumb enough to try it anyway, just draw a circle and a sheet of paper.

And let's let this circle represent all of the, all the things that are, that are just, are not right in your marriage right now. I want you to draw the piece of the pie. You can make it as, as big or as small as you want. Just what is the piece of the pie that's yours that you own. And so I tried this a few times and people would draw most of the time a really small piece.

Mm-hmm. Really small piece and then shaded in, that's there. Sorry, that's, that's yours. Okay, so your spouse isn't here right now. They've clearly got a number of things to own for the rest of our few minutes talking together, let's just talk about your piece of the pie. And they would always say, yeah, but my spouse is wrong.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Granted, let's talk about your piece of the pie. Yeah. But my spouse is wrong. And I'm like, well, this ain't working. Mm-hmm. I don't even know why I tried. Um, but I'm just telling that story really to get to this. We never go wrong if we own our side of the street.

We never go wrong if we start off owning our piece of the pie, however big or small it is.

And I just, and I really like the version of me that remembers this. My favorite version of me is the version of me that remembers this. Hey, um, can I just, I want to acknowledge the x whatever. It's what my piece of the pie is. I want to acknowledge that. I think you deserve better than that. I just want you to know that I'm sorry.

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I just wanna hear from you what I need, what you need to say about that, because I, I, it's so important to me for you to know that this is a big deal to me too. And this isn't, this is a, this is an area where I wanna do differently.

Svea: You

Rick: know, that, so, so that kind of, that kind of conversation and even you just, I just don't think we ever go wrong.

Owning our piece of the pie.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And so if you're there, if you're not in a situation where it's abandonment, abuse, neglect, or infidelity, you could start there. But I wanna, I wanna hammer home what I said in the sermon. It is in your it's to your benefit to spend time with a skilled therapist.

I don't think I'm a skilled therapist. I think I got some skills and some things. This ain't it. I. From time to time, check in with a counselor I did a couple of weeks ago. It was really, really good for me. I wanna be the kind of church where we just do our best to remove any stigma, shame, or insecurity about that, but let people who understand where you're at and the way out be your tour guide through all of that.

That's what I would say.

So, trust, remember, trust is a choice. Choosing to trust and being trust, trustworthy. They're both choices. To embrace humility. Start on our side of the street. Remember why you married that person, right? And I learned this from Tim Keller and I didn't like it.

The first time I read it, I thought he was wrong, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought, no, I'm wrong. He's right. And it's the foundation of a marriage. It may not be love, it's the vow.

It's the promise we made.

And we want to be loving people. And sometimes the feelings of love come easy and sometimes they don't.

This is built on a covenant.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: That was expressed through vows and let that be the found. Remember that, and then remember, you're not alone and so I, okay. This kind of stuff is like a whole series. There's a reason that there's books and books on this kind of stuff. You can never cover everything and everything in, in a sermon if you've got things to, like, if you've got things you need to talk to your spouse about.

I'm, I'm just going to run through some practical advice. Is that okay? Mm-hmm. Can I ramble?

Svea: Go ahead.

Rick: I've been doing it. You haven't stopped me. I might as well keep going.

Svea: Yep, go for it.

Rick: Alright. At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite vomit belongs in the toilet, not on your spouse.

Svea: Ooh.

Rick: Right. So as you're sharing, just kinda remember that everybody's got like a, an amount that they can handle at one time.

Mm-hmm. Right? It doesn't, not everything has to be said all at once. And I'm not saying, lie withhold or anything like that. I'm just saying family belongs in the toilet, not on your spouse. Number two. If you have a friend that you go to and process with, and that friend is not encouraging you to be like Jesus and embody covenant love, that friend is not mature enough to handle what you're sharing.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So find a new friend.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Right?

And then just remember the Holy Spirit. If you are a follower of Jesus, the Holy Spirit of God is with you and in you. Don't do this alone. You aren't alone. Spend time in prayer. And the last, the last thing that I'll say is love covers a multitude of sense.

And so we don't always have to, we don't always have to point out every time that someone's chewing a little too loud. Maybe you don't always have to point out when someone is playing the video on their phone with the volume on while you're trying to watch your favorite hunting show, right? Maybe you don't always have some point.

Svea: I'm sure you just pulled these right out of thin air.

Rick: I'm making these up on the fly. Fa.

Svea: I could tell.

Yeah. Oh,

Rick: where are we?

Svea: I'm just enjoying watching the ramble go here. Some of these look like phrases you can put on a t-shirt. Oh

Rick: yeah.

Svea: No, that's good. Yeah, that's good. I, and it's actually, it is helpful just to hear some of the, these practical kinds of. Of things, I think you're very wise to point people towards.

Yeah. Professional counseling in the same way that if we had physical symptoms, we would go see a doctor about that. Yep. Mm-hmm. When we've got relational symptoms of things that are not the way we want it to be, there are professionals there to help us with that too. And we do well to make use of that. I

Rick: think probably the people who've done the best work that I'm aware of are the gottman's.

And like the thing that they discovered is, you know what the secret is. Just being kind.

Svea: It's amazing, huh?

Rick: Just being kind.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Wow.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Being interested in the other,

Svea: yeah.

Rick: I will. So I, I said, uh, I said this thing, about playing videos on your phone, but, uh, you know, one of the things I said is, you know, you need a mission and, yeah, I think Heather and I know we know what our mission is. We're we're aware of where our kids are right now, where, where our parents are right now, and the, the kind of things that are, that, that are, that are important to us, but also you just need adventure and fun.

And, uh, we do stuff now that neither one of us ever would've imagined.

Yeah. Like she goes with me sometimes on Sunday afternoons trying to help me find antler sheds. So she is such a great sport and she will come with me and scout hunting property and look for deer sign and try and help me find. Antlers and

Svea: Stu,

Rick: you know, and, um, man, it just, and

Svea: what are you doing for her?

Rick: I'm trying to figure out what am I doing?

Svea: Well, there's, there's mission

Rick: number two. My hobbies take so much time. I don't know. We got enough time, you know, we're doing, we we're going, uh, we're going camping.

Svea: Oh, okay. Next

Rick: week we're gonna, we're going to the Black Hills, we're going camping together and, uh, I get to do a little bit of hunting, but we get to, we get to do a lot of hiking and a lot of, a lot of time together.

Really. Really.

Svea: That sounds

Rick: great. Really looking forward to that. Yeah,

Svea: that sounds great. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that can be helpful too, just to prioritize those times to get away with your spouse and do something out of the ordinary mm-hmm. Out of routine, just to help even kind of get out of the ruts a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. Have some fun, have an adventure. Yeah. Build some new memories.

Rick: And I, I would just say just this, I think this goes for just about any kind of scenario we could be talking about. Whether we're talking about marriage or something else, that you're feeling wounded, you're feeling tired, you're feeling tender, you need a little bit of margin for healing to take place.

Just give yourself that. Give yourself that.

Svea: Can you talk some more mm-hmm. About healing in a marriage? Yeah. Maybe specifically in the context of this chapter, um, where it's looking a little bit more at the sexual aspect of marriage. Can you speak, I mean, obviously we talked about the importance of counseling and seeing therapists that can help there.

Yeah. But in this idea where, where our bodies are something that we yield mm-hmm. To our spouse, um. Speak to the person that maybe has some abuse or trauma in their background. And this passage may have felt a little bit threatening in that.

Rick: Yeah. Wow. That, um, in, in many ways, that feels way beyond me.

But if that is you, you're not alone. I don't want you to sink inward in that. I don't want you to feel shame. I don't want you to feel less than. If that's you, you owe it to you. You owe it to everybody who loves you, and you owe it to the people who you love to get careful, skilled assistance with the things that you're carrying because you didn't ask for that.

If that's in your background, that was done to you and you deserve help with that.

And so I, I just hope that you would, I hope you would take, I hope you would take advantage of that.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: It's okay.

It's good to do, it's good to do that. Can I ask a, a question that I know some people are asking?

Svea: Sure.

Rick: It's a little bit different than what you just raised is, and, and the question is, what if it doesn't work?

What if I really do all this and my spouse doesn't even try to meet me halfway?

That happens. It does happen. And with gentleness and seriousness.

I would say as followers of Jesus, we don't do this because it works. We do it because it's good. Now, I don't know of any better way to do relationships. I don't think there's a better way to approach marriage. But it's not just a question of pragmatism. It's not just a question of, of getting the outcomes that we want.

It's also about the kind of person that we want to be and the person who we're becoming in Christ. And if we're with him. If we're becoming like him, we're gonna do as he did. Then we will be people who just want to take our next step in. In loving this way, approaching Kevin in this way, I.

Svea: Say that, that line I think has more power than you just went kind of through it quickly there.

Okay. But about we don't do this because it works. Mm-hmm. We do it because it's good.

Rick: That's right.

Svea: That's really quite profound.

Rick: Mm.

Svea: And not thinking in terms of it, is this working or isn't it? Mm-hmm. But. Is it good? Mm-hmm. And I think we'd have to see the answer is yes, this is a good approach to relationships, a good approach to marriage.

A little bit ago you talked about Keller's point, that the foundation of marriage isn't love. It's. It's vow. Yes. And, and covenant and promises. And I was thinking as you were saying that, you know, when, in a Christian wedding ceremony, it's not just about bride and groom making promises to each other.

Mm-hmm. You're making those promises before God. Mm-hmm. And you're bringing God into this covenant, into these vows That's right. With you. And uh, and something that's. Steve and I have talked about, and, and I'll say quickly, he does this better than I do. He's, he's, I've heard

Rick: that

Svea: you probably could just observe this.

But in thinking about the way that I act in my marriage isn't just between Steve and me, it's also. God and me and God and Steve. Yes. And so the way that I serve him, mm-hmm. Even if he doesn't notice, it, doesn't reciprocate, doesn't, match my level of effort or mm-hmm. Or vice versa. It's still something that I'm doing before God.

Mm. And God sees it.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And so even in that idea of we don't do this because it works, we do it because it's good. I think some of the goodness there is because God sees how we are seeking to love other people. Mm-hmm. He could see are we trying to be Jesus like in this? Yeah. And so even if our spouse doesn't notice it or reciprocate it.

God sees. Yeah. And it's not wasted effort.

Rick: It's not, it's never wasted.

Never wasted. So I don't know if I covered the questions that, that you had or

Svea: if I just, well, I have one last question for you on a little bit different topic. And this one's probably less emotional, but maybe just as provocative of some of the other things.

Ooh. And you had, you pointed out, and I think you pointed out somewhat because I maybe had. Prodded you a little bit to make this point, um, but the concept of spiritual headship, spiritual leader, the husband being the spiritual leader of the home mm-hmm. That's not really a concept that's rooted in scripture.

Rick: Well, first you don't ever find any verses that say that. I did have a, I thought a great conversation with somebody who said, so where does that come from? Because it's out there and it's really popular. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. Um. I think it's coming from, I think it's being read into the text in part by some glossing over some things that's there and some things that are being misunderstood.

And probably the biggest one is Ephesians chapter five. Wives being the, excuse me, the husband being the head. And first off, you gotta start in Ephesians chapter five verse 21. Submit to one another out of Reverence for Christ. The very next sentence is wives. To your husband's. So the verb isn't even there.

And so that tells us grammatically that it is connected to the previous verse. It's not like 5 21. Okay. Now onto a brand new subject. Mm-hmm. And I'll listen ladies, it's No, this is all connected.

Svea: This is the application of verse 21.

Rick: That's right. Mm-hmm. So there's a couple of things that I think that we need to pay attention to.

With the, with a headship metaphor. That was a very common metaphor that was used in the Greek and Roman world. Head was often a leader, is often a person of a, of a prominent position. But that is, it's very unlikely that that's the key thing that was being emphasized. The key thing that's being emphasized in the headship is in Greek and Roman thinking the head was the recipient of honor, never having to give honor the head was the recipient of service, never had to give service the head.

And there are numerous places we can read where this is talked about, um, by Greek philosophers, Roman historians, what have you that the head receives love and is not responsible for returning it to anyone. And Paul, this, this is this great article, uh, that calls the, the Greek word for head is kale.

Flipping kale on its head. Just Paul flips it around. You're the head. That means you have to love and so. If you don't understand that background and you're just kind of reading it from a from a modern Western context, misunderstanding or just not being aware of the background, you think, oh, this kind of feels like hierarchy.

And really what Paul is doing, he's utterly dismantling hierarchy and saying, no, no, no, no. You are responsible to. Do the things that you think are beneath you, you think you're in the top. But remember Jesus said the greatest among you as a servant, a slave of all. And so it's that same, it's that same idea that's carried in.

And the, the, the head and body metaphor is, it's your, it's unity, so you're united. Love your wife the same way that Christ love, loved the church as a humble servant taking the role of a slave. Giving up is very self

Svea: mm-hmm.

Rick: For wellbeing. And so this is, this is profound imagery using a common imagery of the day and utterly, utterly flipping it around.

So does that mean that men don't lead? Well, that's a dumb idea. Of course, men lead, they're just not the only leaders, and it doesn't mean that. That husbands and dads aren't spiritual leaders, uh uh, in the home. Well, what a dumb idea that would be. Of course they are, they're just not the only ones. It is the husband and the wife Covenant together, united together in covenant.

Both playing out the gospel, taking on responsibilities of leadership in the day-to-day affairs of the home and in spiritual leadership of all those who are in their home.

Svea: Yeah. Thank you for saying a little bit more about that. That one. Bye. Always

Rick: happy to say more. Stan, I think we've established

Svea: that.

Your point again. Alright, well we've got something to run to here, so we're gonna wrap it up here. But, uh, thank you for all of your additional comments and, uh, and expansions on what you had to say in the message.

Rick: I think, I think we're out of the woods on awkward passages in First Corinthians.

Svea: You don't think there's any more?