Church is Messy

Church Is Messy, 03-04-2026 Ep135
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Svea: Good morning, Rick

Rick: Saya. Good morning.

Svea: I am so excited to just be sitting here. Yeah. And, uh, we get to have a good conversation about what you pointed out in the messages, notoriously known as the most difficult passage in the New Testament.

Rick: Oh my goodness. This is. This is challenging.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: It's almost, it, it's obnoxiously difficult.

Svea: So I noticed you've got the, uh, extra large cup of coffee this morning.

Rick: I do, yeah. I'm ready. I'm ready. I've been sipping on coffee. I feel like I am, uh, sufficiently caffeinated to engage in more controversy and perhaps some shenanigans with you this morning.

Svea: All right. We'll bring it on. I've got my soothing ginger turmeric tea going,

Rick: you know, it was, can I just make an observation about our congregation

Svea: please?

Rick: So in the first part of the message, I felt like they were just like really highly interactive with me, which is fun. Which happens a lot, Uhhuh. And, you know, I, I really did prime the pump with that, with that beer grills video clip of him. Oh my goodness. Squeezing.

Svea: I can't believe we let you get away with that one.

S

Rick: squeezing l liquid out of elephant dung and drinking it. But when we,

Svea: for the record, the most controversial part of our sermon run through last week. Was

Rick: that, was, is that that would be acceptable. Yeah. But by, but while we're making our way through the heart of this passage and how to think about it, I know it's just like, I don't know if it's information overload, but it was a lot.

Mm-hmm. It was a lot of information and I, I felt like people were like with me, but it was just like too much to like, to to respond demonstrably in any way. It was just like, whoa, this is a lot to process. And it is, and I'm like trying to share. An aspect of something that I've been studying for years.

Sure. Trying to get my mind wrapped around. Yeah.

Svea: Well I, you know, I would verify that, not that it was not clearly communicated, but it was a very dense message with a lot to process. You're

Rick: not calling me dense.

Svea: I mean, I said it in one sentence, but No, no, no, no. But I found how much more I was able to process at a deeper level. Each time I heard the message, I got to hear it at all three services.

Mm-hmm. And on a fourth time, if you count the run through,

Rick: yeah. We do a, we do a practice on a Thursday where I share with the staff and then they give feedback and ask questions and we, we wrestle. Through some things, and you were the one that reminded me that, Hey, you know, here's a verse that's pretty obscure, you know, to

Svea: greet each other with the holy kiss.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Yeah. We never do that.

Rick: Some dudes played around like they wanted to kiss me on their way out, which I was grateful that it was just Jes. And it,

Svea: I'm just gonna let that one lie.

Rick: It was just, just, and it all resulted in handshakes, but they, they're, they're just saying, I'm listening. Yeah. I get it.

Svea: Yeah. For sure. It did kind of feel like there was almost two parts to the message. There was kind of the initial part where you set up some thinking on fundamentalism. Mm-hmm. And then actually walking through the complicated passage that first Corinthians 11 is,

Rick: can we, can we talk about that?

And I can understand why some people might feel like, it just feels like too. Two different topics, not bad topics, but it's tough to see the, the connection.

Svea: Yeah. Can you maybe connect the dots a little

Rick: bit more? Yeah. What I'm trying to, what I'm trying to demonstrate is, is that the reality of a vulnerability within all people, whenever we experience something that is difficult it's just part of being human.

We can grasp at just, I just wanna make it simple. And in our pursuit of simplicity. We sometimes slip into simplistic explanations for complex matters. I just, I, I get it. It's something we're just, because we're humans, we're, we're vulnerable to, we're trying to grasp at certainty. Just, just tell me and, and just gimme something to think about.

Do I have, I don't have to, I can just claim this kind of certainty slogan, and I don't have to dig into the messiness mm-hmm. Of this matter, this subject this text. Or there's a sense of fear or, or anxiousness that we, that we just can't go there. And you can see that in a variety of directions.

It could be a person who and we're calling that as an expression of fundamentalism. Particularly what I just talked about was dogmatism. And you could see that and folks who say, you know what? You just can't trust the Bible. Ignore it. You could see that you can see that impulse in people who say, you know, I only trust certain parts of the Bible, but there are other parts that I don't trust.

'cause I, you know, they won't dig into it. They're just trying to they're just trying to find something that's easy for them to grasp. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. And it's also. You also see it on the, on the other side, uh, where people are kind of hammer down aggressively and, and, and this is what it, this is what it says, and they, they try to impose a literalistic kind of understanding of it while ignoring that there are any contradictions or apparent contradictions.

I'm not affirming that there are contradictions. I wanna make sure that I'm clear about that, but they just like, yeah, do this, follow this. I ignoring the complexities and the challenges within the passage, you could see this, I, you could say it on both sides or both ends of the spectrum, different angles, however you want to, you want to describe it.

But that impulse is, or that tendency can be in all kinds of different people. And, and we're, we're tracing that back to something, to a psychology, to a mindset that we're labeling fundamentalism. And when we read a passage like this, that tendency. Is there, we're vulnerable to it. And we just want to acknowledge it.

We wanna shine a spotlight on it and say, that's not what we're gonna do. Instead we're gonna hunker down. And prayerfully sit with it and rigorously study it to do the best we can to come to understanding. And when we do that, that's loving God with our mind. That is. That's an expression of worship.

Svea: Oh, there's so much there that I'd love to unpack. So, so let's, let's hit a couple of these points.

Rick: Okay. Yeah. Did we make that connection clear in the sermon? I don't know, but that's the attempt.

Svea: Sure.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Sure. I mean, okay. So here's a couple things that I'd, I'd love for us to, to discuss a little bit.

Yeah. Because I think this pointing to the tendency that we have mm-hmm. To retreat to fundamentalism when life feels uncertain Yeah. Is a helpful thing for us to be aware of. Mm-hmm. Not just in our theology. But just even in our approach to what we think and what we believe in general you know, I think we, we saw elements of that in the early days of COVID mm-hmm.

Where everything felt uncertain facts mm-hmm. Were coming from different directions. Yeah. And, uh, and it became very easy for people to polarize mm-hmm. Around how they interpreted mm-hmm. The, uh, responses to COVID. Mm-hmm. Um, that being kind of its own form of this rigid dogmatism in the way that we held beliefs.

In those days. So I, I think there's something there that's helpful for us to be aware of that mm-hmm. When facing uncertainty and insecurity mm-hmm. Just human nature is to grasp and to grasp tightly.

Rick: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's understandable.

Svea: And so a passage like this that not only is rife with uncertainty mm-hmm.

And a lack of clarity mm-hmm. But even some stress. Yes. Yes. And I'd say as a woman hearing this passage read, even though I have experienced Autumn Ridge to be one of the healthiest places to be a woman in ministry,

It's still. Caused me to feel stress that I could feel my heart racing. Wow. And at one point my kneecap was shaking.

Rick: Really?

Svea: Yes.

Rick: Can you help me understand that a little bit more? Because there might be some people who are listening right now and they're thinking, yeah, totally get it. You don't need to explain any further. But then there are some who are gonna like, tell me a little bit more about that.

Svea: Sure. Well, we're kind of jumping ahead to the passage portion of this but just to hear certain lines about mm-hmm.

You know, that like, woman is the glory of man. And certain things that just don't feel consistent with how scripture mm-hmm. Talks about women in other places. Hearing that it's not just hearing phrases like that, but it's also the, maybe in an unhealthy way. Looking around the room and wondering how many people mm-hmm.

Have been taught that. Mm-hmm. And that's what they believe and that's how they think about women.

How does that play out mm-hmm. In, in the way that they interpret Mm. Other sections of scripture too. Yeah. There's just a lot that's kind of there in a subtle background kind of way. And having.

Been in a more complementarian camp for a lot of my life. I've been taught many of these things about the hierarchy of mm-hmm. Of men over women. And so some of that just kind of brings all of that up to the surface again,

Rick: oh, we could, here's something we could have talked about. There's just not time.

And it's not a, I don't, I didn't consider it essential to conveying what we were trying to talk about, but the umbrella. Imagery, uh,

Svea: Uhhuh.

Rick: And I imagine that that came to your mind.

Svea: Absolutely.

Rick: Yeah. We might have even talked about that last week, but, uh, just you, you and me in conversations in the hallway.

But there's the, the old picture of the umbrella and the big umbrella is Jesus. And then under that is a slightly smaller umbrella, and that's the husband. And under that is a slightly smaller umbrella, uh, that says wife. And then under that. Are tiny umbrellas that say kids. Yeah. Right. And so, which, whoever came out with that, do you understand how umbrellas work?

You know, like that top, that top umbrella was sufficient.

Svea: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There, there's some irony there, but it does, it, it's subtle in how that creeps into people's thinking. Where mm-hmm. If a husband separates wife from Christ

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: There's just something there that's incompatible. Mm-hmm. With the rest of scripture.

Rick: Okay. So listen. Don't take this too far, but it is kind of that expression of trying to understand this is a type of Catholicism imposed to family life. Where in, uh, the Catholic church, uh, a priest is an actual mediator who you go through for prayers, for forgiveness. You're tracking with me?

Mm-hmm. The husband becomes that. Mm-hmm. And the family dynamic, that just doesn't seem, that just doesn't seem to, to really jive with Jesus. Or, or the, or the New Testament. So, just wanted, just wanted,

Svea: no, first Peter is very clear about the priesthood of all believers. Yeah. And that's not limited to men or husbands.

Yeah. But that's all of us who are in Christ.

Rick: But I don't want to, at the same time, I don't want to laugh away or be cynical or even really be judgemental. I, I do wanna disagree with ideas that. That I don't think offer the best explanation. And, and I'm happy to disagree with people who I think are promulgating, uh, explanations that I don't think are, are best or are taking all, all the facts.

What we're talking about is different views on what does it mean to be head of. The guy's, the Head of Christ crisis, the head of man man is that is the head of woman. I mean, what does that mean? Mm-hmm. And what does that mean in this passage? And so there are different understandable interpretations.

Head of is use metaphorically and literally in the passage.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: And you have to use your context clues to to pick that up because when it talks about, you know, like a covering on the head, well that's your. Literal physical head interpret it literally. And then, but someone being the head of someone else that's metaphorical.

Mm-hmm. So what does that metaphor mean? Does it mean authority? Does it mean source? Does it mean preeminence? Is it being used to communicate the idea of unity? Yeah. It's, I mean, there are really highly informed, highly competent, very intelligent scholars who disagree.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: On how to best understand that.

Svea: Well, and it's tricky because even if you. Try to take one of those four explanations mm-hmm. For what head can mean, and then you try to plug that into Doesn't work, the equation doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's inconsistent.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Uh, for nearly all of them.

Rick: Going back to the fourth century. So this would be the, uh, three hundreds ad One of my all time, maybe my all time favorite Pastor John, Chris Osto, known as, uh, John the Golden Mouth.

He was just a, just a brilliant communicator. People loved him, had, had tremendous influence. He just said, listen, you can't understand that God being the head of Christ, the same as man being the head of woman. It just, it does not work. Mm-hmm. There's, there's, there's a difference there.

And theologians have latched onto that for a long time. And there have been, um, moments throughout Christian history even. Relatively recently, 2011, uh, where Christian theologians are debating, is there some sort of hierarchy within the Trinity and you, just that continues to be rejected. No, it can't.

That's not true. That cannot be the case. And so, but there have been some people who have tried to read this as some sort of hierarchy. So there has to be a hierarchy among people because that's in God. Since the, the Council of Nyia that has been rejected and continues to be rejected. So if, when you say, okay, it can't be that you're just, I mean you are in lockstep with all of Orthodox Christian history.

Svea: Yeah. Okay. So we're kind of all over the map here. A little bit,

Rick: little bit over the map, feeling a little bit nerdy. Um, not sure that any of that's helpful.

Svea: I think if anything it demonstrates again how thorny this passage is, that it's almost even difficult to have a linear conversation about it.

Mm-hmm. Because it just pulls in so many different things that either it's difficult to interpret. Um, exegetically it's difficult in the kind of elements that it brings out. I mean, even just things like. I, I mean, I was squirming as in my seat as you're pointing out that a woman with long unbound hair had certain cultural connotations

Rick: and then you confidently took the stage with long unbound hair.

Well, okay. And gave announcements and you prayed.

Svea: Prayed. With my long unbound hair, I'll say, okay,

Rick: I am actively editing right now. There are so many things that I, so many jokes I wanna make.

Svea: I had very much thought about how should I do my hair this weekend. And I did think I want for every woman in the room that is feeling uncomfortable about her hair in this moment to see me having long unbound hair.

Yeah. And not shying away for it. So that was one for you ladies.

Rick: Well, good way to go. So I didn't say what I think Paul means by head of in this passage.

Svea: I thought you did. You talked about unity.

Rick: I did say I think he's conveying unity.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: But that's not all of what I think.

Svea: Okay. Tell me more of what you think.

Rick: All right. First I think we need to understand that headship was a common metaphor used in the Roman world. If you, the, the emperor was the, was the head or a general was the head of the army. And then the patter, mamis. Was the head of the home that was common. We've, I've shared, uh, writings of Greek philosophers and historians about that in previous sermons, uh, over the past six years here at Autumn Ridge.

Now, sometimes, sometimes it means preeminent. Sometimes it means authority in common, Roman thought and culture. One of the ways that this expressed itself is in writings about how this should play out in the home, is that love. And adoration and service flows up to the head.

And specifically talked about it doesn't flow down from the head, it only, it only flows up.

This is why, uh, one scholar in particular wrote a really cleverly titled article, flipping Kale on its head. Kafa is the Greek word for head because in Ephesians chapter five, Paul talks about husbands being the head and they should love their wives. And what Paul. What Paul was saying would've been considered scandalous.

Hmm. Utterly scandalous in Roman culture. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The head doesn't love those beneath, only those beneath. Love the head. Paul said, you don't understand head headship. And so when we. Read it from an American context and we're thinking like head's the leader and, and it's up and it's hierarchy.

We're actually breaking with the kind of thing that Paul is communicating. No, no, no, no, no. As the head, it's your job to serve and to love. So he took a common cultural metaphor and used it to teach Christ's likeness, not perpetuate a Roman idea. And so we just got, we, we have to understand that. So that headship is about love flowing out.

Mm-hmm. And loving. Mm-hmm. Alright, so I, and also I think, uh, the scholar, Sarah Sumner has done a good job of communicating how Paul uses this to convey unity. I think that we see a combination of unity perhaps authority and certainly source. And Paul's thought here, lemme explain. So God is the head of Christ.

That's confusing because sometimes biblical writers, Paul, in this case, uh, says God, when what he really means is the Father.

Right? Sometimes those are used interchangeably. You gotta, you gotta understand. You gotta understand that. And so the son. Happily submitted to the will of the father and his earthly ministry.

And so there is, it's not an eternal subordination, but it is a functional subordination in time in the role of salvation. Jesus gladly submitted to the will of the Father and we see their utter unity in that. Actually, this is really fun. I once wrote an article. Called did Jesus die singing?

Because when he said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? He's quoting the first line of Psalm 22. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so the rest of that psalm would've unfolded like a lawn chair in people's minds. It is a song of worship that ultimately ends at a place with people realizing. God hasn't forsaken 'em, they're utterly united in this, in this endeavor.

So that we see unity between the son and the father in the life of Christ, we see that the son happily submitted to the will of the Father. I think that's being, I think that's being communicated. I think we also see source between men and women that Adam was created before Eve and is from somehow some way, God, you know, splitting Adam in, in half and, and creating.

Creating Eve, it's not a rib. Go back and you should check out some of the Bible project videos of what I just said, uh, is blowing your mind. And so is the source, right? But there's also tremendous unity. Mm-hmm. And yes, wives do submit to husbands, and husbands do mutually submit to their wives.

We see that throughout the New Testament. Thinking about one Peter, uh, chapter three today, it talks about, wive submit to husbands, slave submits your pastors husbands in the same way and. It's like in the same way, what, well, you have to submit too, so that your prayers will be answered, right?

Mm-hmm. And so mutual submission is all throughout Ephesians 5 21, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. I mean, this is, this is everywhere because, and then you jump down to verses 11 and 12 men and women are interdependent.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: So I think it's a combination of all of those things.

But we don't want to just latch onto one thing and amplify it at the exclusion of understanding the rest. Yeah, I think that's part of the reason that this is challenging, and I think it's also prob what he's writing is rooted in prior conversations and letters that he that he's exchanged or, or held, uh, with the Corinthians that.

We don't have access

Svea: to. Sure. Yeah. Context. Mm-hmm. That we don't get to have. Yeah. Yeah. That has to play into that little line about the angels. There had to have been some, maybe even inside joke information. Yeah. That made sense to them. That we just don't get,

Rick: If you read Hebrews, I think it, and then, and read this in light of Hebrews.

It helps us to be aware that in the first century there was some weird ology ideas or some just weird ideas about angels, um, that had made their way into the church that was just hijacking sound thinking and what it meant to follow Jesus in. So we're not given a lot of explanation on that, but certainly it, it sounds like Paul is rebuffing some bad theology there.

Svea: Okay, so returning to a little bit of some of our first. Points you brought out fundamentalism mm-hmm. In the beginning of this message because of this tendency that we have mm-hmm. To just wanna try to make sense of everything. Mm-hmm. Find a simplistic answer. Mm-hmm. Um, be able to explain it and that that's a natural response mm-hmm.

To things that feel messy or unclear. Mm-hmm. Or uncertain. And we're so. Likely to wish we could do that with a passage like this. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, and it just seems evident from mm-hmm. The scholarship out there that mm-hmm. No scholar that's being academically honest mm-hmm. Is able to say, this is exactly what this means, and I can proof text it for all of these ways.

They might be able to po a theory.

Rick: Sure. It's possible that one scholar is utterly right. The problem is there's just not consensus. There's just a, there's just a lot of factors that, that cause. That prevent scholars from saying, yeah, I think we've landed the plane on this

Svea: one. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about maybe even some spiritual maturity that's there in being able to say, I don't know.

I'm gonna have to hold some of this with an open hand.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And just trust in the character of God

Rick: That's right.

Svea: In this.

Rick: That's right.

Svea: You know, we talk a little bit about as someone's maturing in their mm-hmm. Spiritual life mm-hmm. That they tend to become more and more of an non-anxious presence Yeah.

As they're becoming closer to being like Jesus. In, in, yeah. In all ways, and maybe there's an element here that is a lesson we can learn from a passage like this that yeah, we might not be able to ever get it completely figured out and that might be okay.

Rick: I think we start with gratitude. There's a lot that I may not be able to understand, but there's a lot that I can't understand and what I need to understand is revealed in.

Jesus. And I'm grateful for that. I had a professor in seminary who said, trying to understand God is like trying to squeeze 50 pounds of mud and a five pound bucket. It doesn't mean that you can't get bucket, doesn't mean

Svea: you ruined any analogy of squeezing things right now for me.

Rick: Okay. Um, shoveling, shoveling 50 pounds of mud into a five pound bucket.

Okay? Now. If you can only get five pounds of mud in, in the bucket, in the brain bucket that you have, you still, you got something in there

Svea: uhhuh.

Rick: And be grateful for what you're able to grasp. But let's all recognize that God, doesn't defy comprehension, but he is beyond our full comprehension.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Even when we are in eternity with the unhindered filling of the spirit, we will not fully and exhaustively comprehend all of who God is. He is infinite and whose goodness.

Svea: So take that a step further. Mm-hmm. Is there even a way to then approach a passage like this as an act of worship?

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. To say, God, I wanna, I wanna understand this the best I can, and I'm going to give the best that I have to pursue understanding, but ultimately, I trust you and I may not understand this, but I don't need to understand this to trust you. You've already given me enough to trust you. But I'm gonna try to understand, I wanna understand.

Mm-hmm. Because I think it, not just the outcome of understanding, but the process of trying to understand. Strengthens and, and illuminates my relationship with you. Mm-hmm. And I'm for that. I'm here for that.

Svea: That's good. I like that.

Rick: Okay,

Svea: so for someone who. Maybe this was a new way of thinking about this passage.

Mm-hmm. You did offer a theory from Lucy Pepa that has mm-hmm. Um, I think has some legs to it. I

Rick: do too.

Svea: It makes some sense. Mm-hmm. It seems to handle the passage.

Rick: It's

Svea: not on with integrity.

Rick: It's not unreasonable. Mm-hmm.

Svea: Certainly

Rick: not unreasonable. Mm-hmm.

Svea: You

Rick: can't prove it though.

Svea: Yeah. How would you help the person that's saying, okay, that seems like a great theory as I am maybe someone's online trying to do some of their own research. Mm-hmm. Like how do you evaluate different theories? What's worth pursuing? How do you go through this process in a passage like this that has so many different explanations and they can't all be right, but one might be right or none of them might be right.

Rick: So I want you to remember this, any interpretation fails where any fact won't fit. Whatever explanation is offered, it has to be able to account for and accommodate all the facts, all the known facts. So if an explanation does that, alright, so you're gonna have at least two different categories, maybe three.

One category is here's an interpretation, here's an explanation that. Really does accommodate for all the facts. So I'm gonna put it in this bucket over here. Then I've got explanations that they seem reasonable but they're not, they don't quite accommodate all the facts. So I'm gonna put it there.

And then you've got other explanations that seem to ignore a lot of this stuff. We'll just put that in the, not even in a bucket, you're gonna throw those away in the trash. Those are not, those are not worth your time. So I'm gonna go a little bit philosophical, but this works with everything in life.

When you want to know what the truth is, what you're trying to figure out is by truth is any statement that describes reality as it actually is. And the tests for that are coherence and correspondence. Coherence is how does it account for and accommodate all the facts. And then the second is, does it contradict itself in any way?

And so you're going to like, you're gonna evaluate, okay, are all the facts accounted for? And adequately explained. And is there anything in this explanation that contradicts itself? And then we're all, we're gonna use that coherence and say, okay, how does it fit with other things that we know in scripture?

Um, does it accommodate those as well? And does this contradict anything else that we. In scripture. And so that's gonna take, that's gonna take a little bit of time. So when you find a couple of different scholars, two or three scholars, they're offering competing explanations you can begin to evaluate them in that way.

And it's still okay to get to a place to go you know, I kind of lean towards one more than the other, but I don't really know. That's okay. It's totally okay because Paul let us know what we need to know most. And the thing that we need to know most is this, is that men and women are interdependent on each other and we're all fully dependent on cat.

That is the point. Mm-hmm. That's why he said, nevertheless, in chapter 11, this is what you need to know. Men and women. Interdependent. All men and women fully dependent on cat.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: That's the point.

Svea: That's good. How do we deal with the factor that our own internal bias plays in this? Because we come at the way that we would interpret the facts from a biased position.

Rick: Yeah. Everybody does. There is no position from nowhere. Mm-hmm. Right? We, we all have biases. We all have leanings. That's okay. That's not the problem. Um, the problem is choosing not to acknowledge it. That's problem number one. Problem number two is to not embrace disciplines that mitigate those biases.

Svea: So it came out in the, the run through, when you had chosen this explanation from Lucy Pepa. Yeah. Who's a qualified scholar, has done work in First Corinthians specifically for

Rick: sure.

Svea: But also happens to be a woman. Yeah. It was, it was brought out that, is that actually to the detriment of the argument in this?

Because one could say, well, of course a woman is going to figure out. An explanation of this text that, uh, maybe elevates the position of women in a way that maybe a male scholar wouldn't be accused of the same kind of bias.

Rick: Yeah. And then there are male scholars who affirm that this, uh, or believe that this affirms a hierarchy of men over women.

So they, they've got skin in the game too. Mm-hmm. So should we wait them? More heavily because, you know, they've got, they've got at least the vulnerability of confirmation bias as well. And so, okay. What we're talking about are ADD hominem. Attacks, which is a logical fallacy. It, you don't go, well, of course you would say that because you are a woman.

Of course you would say that because you are a man. Of course you would say that because of the No. When you do that, you're actually ignoring the argument or the content of the ideas that they're presenting. And focusing in on something else that's ultimately irrelevant. The combination of chromosomes in my body have nothing to do with the content or the merits mm-hmm.

Of what I presented in the sermon.

Svea: Mm-hmm. Right?

Rick: Mm-hmm. My biology is an irrelevant factor. Your biology is isn't irrelevant factor. Evaluate the argument on its merits.

Svea: Mm.

Rick: That's what wise people do.

Svea: No, that's good.

Rick: Hucksters con men, stupid people are going to try to distract you with these nonsensical, nonsensical other things.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: No, no. We evaluate arguments on the merits, on the merit of the argument.

Svea: So as we move forward with this passage what would you like the people of Autumn Ridge to take from this passage? What would you like them to remember a year from now?

Rick: Am I allowed to repeat myself?

Svea: Sure.

Rick: Okay. It's, I'm just gonna repeat I, to quote me.

Um.

Svea: That doesn't sound arrogant at all.

Rick: I just want people to be more humble like me. Um, if they could do that. No, it's really, it's the big goal is just be, to be confident in scripture, but you don't have to be combative.

Like I, I would be Okay. I would really be okay if you were like, Rick, I, I'm not persuaded by Lucy Pep and I think this other view.

Okay, well let's just talk about, let's let those ideas duke it out, and at the end of the day, if we disagree, we'll just add it to the list of things that we disagree about. But be confident in scripture, right? Absolutely. Be confident in scripture. Be curious, keep asking questions. And cynicism is.

Is the twin of naivety.

Svea: Mm.

Rick: So being naive is believing something without good reason. Cynicism is not believing something without good reason.

Svea: Oh, I like that.

Rick: So reject both of those things. Mm-hmm. And so be curious, but don't be cynical and then be courageous. It's tough, it's scary, it's confusing, and, and I, I get those impulses ultimately, I don't think that's what we should feel, but I I get the, I get those impulses.

Yeah. What we don't need, what we don't need is contempt. Mm-hmm. What we don't need is to be suspicious of people who aren't yet convinced by what we're convinced of. Mm-hmm. Or who are really confident in a different explanation. We just listen, be confident in scripture, be curious. And be courageous.

And so, that's what I, that's what I want for people. I want us to be, I want us to be the kind of church where when we hit something like this, we go, huh, this is just a time for me to sit and contemplate to be prayerful and to study and to not put a timer on that.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: It takes however long it takes.

Preston sprinkle a theologian. I, I quoted he is. Been conferred A Pauline scholar, like he earned, he earned that credential.

He's been wrestling with this for 20 years.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: So why, you know, most of us just don't have the credentials or the time to be considered a Pauline Scholar. Mm-hmm. So why, why would you give yourself any less time than he gave himself?

Svea: Sure. Sure.

Rick: And he's still on the struggle bus.

Svea: Well, I appreciate that. And I think as. As we look back on this series, I think this passage uniquely teaches something. Mm-hmm. Where there are certain passages in First Corinthians where I think we'll be able to hang on to mm-hmm. The specific point that Paul was making in a verse.

And that scripture will impact our lives. Mm-hmm. But it very well may be that with this passage mm-hmm. With the difficulty that there isn't understanding it mm-hmm. What we'll take from this is a way of approaching scripture. Yeah. And, uh, and. That we'll be able to maybe not lock on to exactly what Paul was trying to convey.

As hard as we're trying to understand it. Mm-hmm. But we're gonna have that approach to, okay. When I don't see the understanding there. Here's how I can approach a text like this.

Rick: I wish we would've had this conversation before I preached. 'cause I feel like you just said something so much clearer. And easier than I was able to say.

I wish I could have said this. Thank you. S Faia. I wish I could have said this or thanks for nothing. S Faa, I wish I could have said this. Listen, you're just gonna hit a roadblock in understanding and so whenever understanding is hard, how are you holding it? How are you approaching it?

Whatever we do, let's don't, let's don't be fundamentalists. Let's remember the fundamentals.

Of our faith, which will cause us to be humble. It's courageous, loving and standing confident in what we know in Christ. And it's okay to go. I just don't know yet.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the good news is we still have future opportunities.

Yeah. We do. To apply this. So yeah, we do. We'll take that into future passages as well.

Rick: I didn't get any questions from folks.

Svea: None

Rick: after this. No.

Svea: Mm

Rick: did you?

Svea: No. Actually come to think about it.

Rick: Yeah. I'm not even sure if people know. Know what to ask, but I will say this, I some, there was a person who said this to me and and, and I, and I hope she doesn't mind me, me sharing this, I'm not saying names or anything like that, but she had said, you know, I was really kind of becoming a, a red letters only kind of Christian because I thought I could trust the words of Jesus to the rest of this stuff is too contradictory and.

But you're showing me No, there's another way to look at it.

And that, oh my goodness.

Svea: That's excellent.

Rick: That meant the world to me.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: That, that someone's confidence in scripture would go up.

Svea: That's great.

Rick: Not go down.

Svea: I love that.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: All right.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Well, let's, uh, charge ahead, continue on and see what more incredible lessons we're gonna get from First Corinthians as we go.