Church is Messy

Church Is Messy, 02-25-2026 Ep134
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Svea: Well, good morning. We're back for another episode of Church Is Messy, and, uh, in particular as we're walking through this very simple shallow book for Corinthians,

Rick: super Easy. It has been eight weeks of just skating on ice. It's just smooth, smooth nothing challenging. I love it.

Svea: Yeah,

Rick: that's why we picked this because it's just easy peasy.

Svea: I guess we're both starting off in a bit of a sarcastic

Rick: mood this

Svea: morning,

Rick: but yeah, no. Have you, do you remember week one I described, uh, one Corinthians that there, there are gonna be moments where it feels like, uh, getting a financial audit and a co colonoscopy all at once? I mean, it is just, there are times it's just rough.

Right. There's, it's, there's some, there's some heavy, there's some heavy stuff and, uh, there's more heavy stuff or challenging things. But I'm hearing from folks that they're enjoying being able to have the conversation mm-hmm. About it. And so I'm energized by it. I think some people are energized by it.

I hope, I hope it's in hope. It's encouraging. I love being the kind of church that we're just like, yeah, let's, let's, let's talk about it. Let's lean in because we think that there's something really good here. Yeah.

Svea: Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. I love to have deep conversations, especially about difficult issues and hard topics and, and this series mm-hmm.

Is bringing that out in a very natural way. And I'm also enjoying conversations I'm getting to have with people and Yeah. And even it's kind of messing with me personally a little bit too. Oh. Oh

Rick: wow. Do we get a little, uh, vulnerability moment

with

Svea: you today? Well, there might be some vulnerability coming out today.

Okay. Alright. All right. But, uh, but yeah, I think, uh, this has been a, a powerful series.

Two, one,

but you just seem nice and energized this morning. Maybe pretty, maybe people have a little feel

Rick: pretty, I feel pretty good. Yeah. I took a meandering drive into, I went like, drove away from church and then looped back in so I could drive through some rural property and Oh

Svea: nice.

Rick: And um, yeah, just kinda look and see.

What's, what's going on out there And it really relaxes me. Mm. And, uh, I think helps me be sometimes kinda reset and be a better version of me. So

Svea: yeah. We, we were just talking before we hit record mm-hmm. About different pathways that we like to experience. Mm-hmm. God, and I think both you and I are people that enjoy being out in nature and, and absolutely just enjoying the beauty of God's creation and taking some time and the stillness to, to focus on his presence or even just to be.

Rick: Yeah, yeah, it's real. It's become like oxygen for me. Uh, there's, uh, many years of my life that, uh, I didn't, either I wasn't aware of it or maybe it evolved into being something that I needed. I don't know if these things change over time but, uh, shout out to practicing the way and, uh, leveraging those, those resources to kind of better understand, because we're not.

Necessarily a one size fits all approach. Mm-hmm. Um, and some people, they are not having the same experience sitting out in nature as you're having, or, or as I'm having. But for me, it's this like, I, I can't even imagine a prayer life without, without being able to have that. I feel like those are my. My best times of prayer and other people are like, uh, no.

Svea: Yeah,

Rick: and that's okay. We don't have to be the same. We are. But, but we get the how me, how me describe this because sometimes I don't do a great, a, a great job of talking good and using, using words, but essentially what I'm trying to say is. We're wired differently. We have unique personalities and temperaments.

Mm-hmm. And ways in which we, we like to engage. And if I tried to impose my way on other people's ways, probably would be stifling.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And if, and there's been times in my life where I felt like other people were telling me if I were. You're gonna be good enough, like a good enough Christian. I had to approach it their way, and that felt stifling to me.

I found a lot of freedom in practicing the way I went a long way to get to the point of just saying, phe, I found a lot of freedom in this.

Svea: Good.

Rick: Am I making any sense?

Svea: Good. Yeah. Okay. If, if anyone's. Curious to learn a little bit more. You can just Google nine sacred pathways. Mm-hmm. And it, it gives people some insights into just the way that God wired our brains mm-hmm.

To enjoy connecting with him. Um, so whether it's through nature for other people, it's much more intellectual. For some people it's maybe more through worship music. For others it might be enjoying traditional kind of practices of the church. There's just lots of different ways

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: That God has wired us to enjoy.

Being with him. Yeah. And uh, yeah, it's kind of freeing to realize what your own natural style is and embracing that.

Rick: I love it.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: I love it.

Svea: Well, let's get back to First Corinthians 'cause we,

Rick: yeah. It took us on a detour there.

Svea: Well, it was a nice detour through the woods.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: We're just starting off.

Rick: I basically did in this conversation how I drove to church today.

Svea: Just a meandering. Yeah. Little extra.

Rick: Yeah, that's right. Okay. I'm back on track. I'm following your lead. You're the bus driver. Take us to school.

Svea: All right, well, we'll take us straight into conflict.

Rick: Okay. Oh,

Svea: is that really where you wanna go?

Rick: Well, how, wherever you're the leader here, where whatever you want to do, you call the shots.

Svea: Well, I'm just following scripture, Rick.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: So this last weekend in the first Corinthians series, we were in the chapter that focused a little bit on a sad element of conflict that was in the Corinthian church. Yeah. And how these brothers and sisters in Christ were not only in conflict with each other.

But taking each other to court.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. That's just weird. Like there, there's so many details that we don't have access to that I'd love to have access to. Mm-hmm. Like, I'd love to know. Alright. What, why? Like, what, what, what did the court case look like? What, like what was the thinking when you said, yeah, I'm taking this dude to court.

I'm gonna wear him out and I'm gonna leverage all the, uh, all the advantages I have to basically put him in his place and for me to regain my social standing. So everybody in the community and everybody in our church is gonna know that I won it. He lost like, what, what, what is going on?

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Like, like I know that they're not.

Unique from us. I mean, we do that kind of stuff to each other in different ways. We do that kinda stuff. But when you kinda sit back and you le see it in other people, it's like, what is going on?

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And I just feel like a dummy because I've got no explanation. I just know I don't like it. I, I don't like it when I see it in me.

I don't like it when I, when I see it in other people.

Svea: Well, as, as keeps coming up. Mm-hmm. We may not struggle with the exact same situation Sure. That the church in the first century did, but we're still vulnerable to the same. Flat sides that they had. Oh,

Rick: for sure.

Svea: Oh, for sure. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I think there is a human nature aspect, especially when we feel wronged to feel like, oh, I gotta get what, uh, what I deserve.

And you gotta get what you've got coming.

Rick: Can I share another one of my insecurity cards?

Svea: Sure.

Rick: And I, I know this relates somehow to the, uh, card that says I'm not smart enough, but this is a card. I'm not sure how to label it. We'll just label it this. I hate being misunderstood.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: When someone misunderstands me or I feel like they misunderstand me, I, it just, it has the potential to spin me up just to wind, to wind me up.

And, and maybe it's related to the, I'm not smart enough because if, if I had done a better job of communicating, you know, if I could have presented it better than, and, and so it, and I think it. Touches on some control issues too. It's, I'm a mess and really what's going on in these messages, I'm just, I'm just sharing my chaos with everybody else and I'm just like, I need Jesus.

And hopefully you could see how. Hell, Jesus is there for you too. But this is my chaos and it, and I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for Grace,

Svea: so I don't wanna misunderstand you.

Rick: Alright. Yeah.

Svea: I, I assume what you mean by that is you don't like to be misrepresented or have someone not understand what you're trying to say and then put on you things that you're not actually saying.

Rick: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. All of that's true. I hate it all

Svea: because I'm, I'm sure you're not saying that you just are upset with someone if they're not getting it right away.

Rick: Not necessarily. But I probably have my moments,

Svea: well, I could see, I guess if that makes, if that triggers kind of a sense of mm-hmm. Maybe I didn't communicate well enough

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: That, that could bring that out.

Rick: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. There's all kinds of, there's all kinds of stuff in there.

Svea: The insecurity card that's just been getting me like crazy lately is this idea that I'm not. Performing well enough or doing enough at my job or enough in relationships.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Um, just that whole feeling of I'm not enough.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Um, boy, I see that coming out more and more and I appreciated the message this weekend for helping me to realize how quickly that card comes out. Yeah. And maybe it comes out faster than I even was aware of before.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: So I wanna ask you a question because I think self-awareness is probably the first step mm-hmm.

To being able to grow mm-hmm. In, in not reacting to these alternative wild cards that we wouldn't necessarily want played.

Rick: Sure.

Svea: But once we become aware of these things, so like in your case, you talked about feeling not smart enough mm-hmm. Or now being misunderstood, or for me for feeling just not good enough or not capable enough.

Mm-hmm. Awareness is a good first step. What do we do next?

Rick: I don't know. I, I didn't know where that, I didn't know where that question was going.

Svea: Oh, sorry.

Rick: It, but it's a great buildup. But, so, so why do we do, I'm always

Svea: misunderstood.

Rick: No, no, no, no, no. So, okay. I'm aware of it. I one, can I just say that if someone gets to that point where they're aware of it.

That's amazing. Can we celebrate that? Can we just pause, like way to go? Mm-hmm. Because too many people live their life not aware of what's going on. But if you could just get to the point where you go, Hey, like, I know who I am and. Christ. And, and I know that I don't need to be in control for me to be okay.

And I know that I don't need everybody to think that I'm smart, and I know that there are gonna be people who misunderstand me, and that's, that's okay. You know, that's just part of life. Like I know that. But then to realize what's happening inside of us, what kind of the ca chaos narrative that starts to play in our brain, or the emotions and the anxieties that we feel to be able to go, ha, I know what's going on now.

Mm-hmm. Like I see, like that is just an amazing moment of victory, and I just wanna celebrate anybody who's there.

Svea: It's empowering.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: And so the next thing is when you're starting to feel like, go, okay, so why am I feeling that?

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: What, okay, now what do I want to do? What do we wanna do with these, with these feelings?

Now, I'm not a, I'm not a counselor, I'm not a therapist. I'm trained in, in theology and some other useless stuff. I'm not, I'm not trained in, in, you know, and, and things like, this is now what you do. You know, like, like therapists have people who are, who are, who are professionals. But for me. I've discovered that my emotions are, you've heard me say this before, they're not a GPS, they're like a, they're lights on the dashboard.

Mm-hmm. They're telling me what's going on under the hood. And emotions are not wrong. Emotions are not bad. They're just what I, they're just what I feel. And oftentimes they are based on, not ju, they're not just based on an experience, they're based on what I believe. Mm. Are you with me?

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Okay. So I want to tell the truth.

To my emotions. Mm-hmm. I wanna tell the truth. And really what I'm saying is I wanna tell the truth to my, to myself. And it's not like flipping a switch. Those emotions don't automatically just, oh, they're changed. Now there's, it takes time to to, to transition. But I wanna tell myself the truth and maybe telling myself the truth.

Faye is simply this. Yeah. Bob misunderstands me. He thinks I mean something else. And man, I just wanna, that's okay.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: That's okay. And I, I wanna do my best to, to relate to Bob and, and I wanna try to understand him and communicate in a way that he understands. But if he's just not motivated to understand, well that hurts.

But you know what, I'm gonna be okay.

Svea: Yeah, no, that's, that's good. I wanna bring this back. Mm-hmm. To the context of scripture and this passage specifically. 'cause as

Rick: That's right, we're pastors, we should talk about the Bible.

Svea: Well, we've got some good examples there. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause you know, Jesus was often misunderstood.

Yeah,

Rick: it was.

Svea: And he could communicate perfectly.

Rick: So this reminds me of another one. There's so many times that I have to just tell myself. If Jesus, who is God in the flesh? Uhhuh 100%, man. 100%. God, 200%. Awesome. He's preaching and teaching and doing miracles. Like here's an argument, and he just settles arguments by miracle.

You know, it's just, it's awesome and people misunderstood him. What hope do I have? Uhhuh? Like if I'm hanging my sense of being okay, as being perfectly understood, it's ridiculous.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: The Apostle Paul, brilliant man. Misunderstood. He's writing to the Corinthians. He's like, Hey, I wrote and I told you this, but you're misunderstanding it.

Let me correct it now. Well, of course we're gonna be misunderstood. That's okay. And really it, I know for me it's messing with the sense that I'm out of control and there's this deep down belief that if I held onto control, controlling people, controlling circumstances, controlling outcomes, that I'd be okay.

And I just need to speak the truth back to myself.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: About that.

Svea: So you brought out in the message something that I think is a helpful handhold in mm-hmm. This with the idea of having an. Eschatological perspective.

Rick: Yeah. Isn't that a fun

Svea: word to say, eschatological? I love it.

Rick: Eschatological.

Svea: Yeah. So eschatology being kind of the study of the future Yeah.

And things that are yet to happen.

Rick: Hey, I used to live in a town that had a retirement village,

Svea: Uhhuh,

Rick: and they called it Eschaton.

Svea: Oh, really?

Rick: Which means the last days, final days. And I just thought

Svea: that's kind of grim.

Rick: Well, it's Greek, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's an old Greek. It's an old Greek term. And I used, always used to make fun of that.

Wow. And then I just, it's like that's really on the nose. It is. And. Ah, anyway. Wow.

Svea: Truly a real place.

Rick: A real place. Wow. It was really nice. Kinda swanky final days.

Svea: Wow. That's a good inside joke for a few bible nerds.

Rick: Yeah.

I just, I did it again. I took us on a detour.

Svea: Detours can be fun.

Rick: Do you even know what you were gonna talk about?

Svea: I, I absolutely do. So, back to our eschatological perspective. Yes. So if we have this mindset, not just that we're stuck in our thinking of today mm-hmm. But if we're aware of where we're headed in the future mm-hmm. And our goals for where we're headed and the future gifts that await us mm-hmm. In Christ.

Mm-hmm. I think that does help us unlock some of these, uh, wild cards.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: That we tend to play.

Rick: Yeah. And so, okay, so I use a really simple example, and maybe you can help me and let's come up with some more to see how this plays out. So I use this kind of as an analogy, if you were experiencing the discomfort of limiting your spending now so that you could pay off debt and be debt free.

So as you're experiencing all of this, I wish I could buy that, but I'm not buying that 'cause I'm sending, sending my money off to to, to pay off this bill. You're telling yourself what is the future story of you? Where are you headed? Mm-hmm. Well, I'm going to be debt free. I'm gonna, I'm becoming the master of my money so that my money will not be the master of me.

Just holding onto that gives you the resources necessary to manage the discomfort. You feel It doesn't cost the discomfort to go away. Yeah. You. Uncomfortable. You feel disappointed, you're feeling frustrated, all of those things, but you have the resources to manage that.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: And so as I, as we look to the future, we talked about, can I, can I pull out something from the message?

Sure. We talked about the cruciform way of life.

Svea: Yeah. I love that

Rick: it's being defined by the self-sacrificing love of Jesus. It's a way of life. Totally defined by the self-sacrificing love of Jesus displayed on the cross and the hope of the resurrection he has resurrected. And so that is a guarantee that we are in him, that we will be resurrected to.

And so I have hope in this life, but my hope is for the life to come. Mm-hmm. Right. And I know where this is headed, and I'm going to live as though that's true. Now there are things that are hurtful, painful difficult, uncomfortable right now. But I want to see all of it right now in light of where the story is headed.

Mm-hmm. It doesn't mean that pain no longer feels like pain. What it means is I have the resources to manage in the middle of it.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Is that, is that clear? It,

Svea: it is to me.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: It, I appreciate

Rick: the approach. Don't misunderstand me, fa

Svea: I wouldn't dream that. I appreciate the approach to parenting that is helping parents keep a mindset that they're raising adults.

Yes. Raising children.

Rick: That's a great example.

Svea: You know, so that as you're dealing with 8-year-old behaviors mm-hmm. It's. It's not that you're going to be teaching an 8-year-old to how, how to be a good 8-year-old for the rest of their life. Mm-hmm. Your goal is to help give that kid building blocks that allows them to become a functional adult.

Yes. And I think there is a lot of value in turning that same approach on ourselves. Mm-hmm. That my goal is not to be a healthy 48-year-old. I wanna be a healthy adult in Christ. Mm-hmm. That will be living with Christ for eternity.

Rick: Mm-hmm. I love it. So tell me if this relates to the conversation yesterday.

I was having a conversation, uh, with, with a friend of mine. He is a little bit further down the road and he's involved in an organization that interfaces with a lot of churches. And this kind of question came up as I'm aging, as I'm growing. Older. Am I becoming more wiser, more rigid?

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Uh, what trajectory am I on?

Yeah. We've talked about this before and this, this doesn't originate with us. We've learned this from other really helpful pastors and teachers. We're becoming more of who we are. Mm-hmm. As we move forward, we're becoming more of who we,

Svea: and it seems that that process actually happens at an exponential rate as we age.

Rick: That's right.

Svea: That we're becoming That's right. More and more an extreme version of the trajectory that we're on.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanna be. On a trajectory that's becoming more like Jesus. Mm-hmm. As if Jesus were living my life. And listen, I know I've got some flat sides and I still, I'm still holding onto some of those wild cards, but we

Svea: all do.

Rick: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I, I think it's just a, I think it's a good thing to think about.

Svea: Mm-hmm. How about some other perspectives that this passage can bring out? So not just the eschatological perspective but what about like, just some theological lessons Oh, sure. That we can take from,

Rick: I think there, as I was thinking through this, and I, I, this was one of those times that I wish that I could have preached for, you know, two hours.

I don't think that would've been fun for anybody else, but it would've helped me to get everything that's just kinda like weighing heavy on my chest about this passage out.

Svea: Then no one would

Rick: misunderstanding. It's hard to understand when they're asleep, you know? They, they could only hang with me for, for so long, but, so there's at least kinda three lenses that I'm seeing this passage through.

One is theological, one is Ecclesiological, and the other is, um. Through the lens of leadership,

Svea: physiological being like through the lens of the church,

Rick: through the, through the lens of the church. And so theological, we're theologically, we're, we're talking about, well, well, this is a theological term, eschatology, thinking about where the story is headed, who we are in Christ and what that's gonna mean and, and what would it mean to start letting that influence how I see myself and how I see one another and, and how we.

And how we relate and what the Apostle Paul is saying, listen, if you understand that, then you should understand right now that you have wisdom. You have the ability to navigate these things together. You don't have to go and live in a, in a worldly way. And whenever, uh, we use that term. In, in the church or you see that term in scripture, it's really talking about living by a set of values and viewpoints that are contrary to or antithetical to the way of Christ.

And in the city of Corinth, it was set up really on a theological understanding. The Gods care about certain people and totally disregard others. And so what do the people do? They, they had their systems patterned after that. We care about certain people and we disregard everybody else. And in the church maybe.

I doubt that they were doing it consciously. I don't think that's how it happens. I think people do it. Kinda unconsciously, subconsciously, they just carry in the values of their old way of life and try to live them out in their new way of life as a follower of Jesus. And it, and it creates chaos. It creates kind of.

Moments of really where you just kinda need some, some accountability and growth. But that's what they, that's what they were doing. They were basically living out idolatry. I think a helpful way to think about what idolatry is, is anything or anyone other than Jesus that we look to for significant security and satisfaction on.

And that's what they were doing. Mm-hmm. They were trying to grasp that those things for themselves through the levers of power that were available to them and their culture at the expense of other people. And all of that is just rooted in a way of life that is rebellious to hostile to who Jesus is in the life that he created for us.

And so that's a theological view of, of what's, of what's going on. And, and really I would just say anytime that we, anytime that we are engaged in sin, anytime that we find. That we are on a path that isn't in sync with what it means to follow Jesus. There's idolatry there and it's not, you know, going to some building and bowing down in front of a statue.

It's looking to something or someone other than Jesus. Mm-hmm. For significant security and satisfaction. So lemme pause there.

Svea: Yeah. Maybe just keep going on that pathway a little bit because if the punchy verse that you were helping us wrestle through Yeah. In this passage was Paul's statement about, wouldn't you rather be wronged,

Rick: wouldn't you rather.

Be wronged.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: And you will never understand that. You'll never come to terms with that in the way that Paul meant, and ultimately in the way that God inspired that to be meant and understood If you don't understand Jesus

Svea: mm-hmm.

Rick: And what he is done and to better understand, I would encourage someone to go to.

Philippians chapter two and really read the mind of Christ and what Jesus has done that he, he considered equality with God, not something to be used to his own advantage, but he made himself a servant, a slave on our behalf, and he would rather carry the weight and the price of all of our wrongs than hold any of our wrongs against us.

Mm-hmm. Um, the cross was excruciating and. Humiliating. And in the writer of Hebrews told us for the joy of it all, for the joy set before him, he endured the cross despising. Mm-hmm. It's shame. And so you're never gonna understand someone saying, why not just rather be wrong than keep this conflict going.

That only makes sense. If you know Jesus,

Svea: that's exquisite theology. Hmm. So let's pivot to the next lens. Okay. That you brought up the Ecclesiological lens.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Ecclesiology, again, being the study of the church

Rick: and really all of Corinthians is contributing to this and this is, this is a tiny. Tiny snapshot of it, but we are the body of Christ.

We are one. And for, so yeah. If you and I, if we were beefing and you know, you're, you're mad at me and I'm mad at you. Okay. That's allowed. Mm-hmm. That's just, that's just allowed. It's possible. It's possible that I could do something that would make you mad. It's probably real. It's possible. It's probably realistic.

Svea: It's within the realm of possibility.

Rick: I hope it's not common, right? It's possible that you could do something that really hurt my feelings or frustrated me or whatever. Like these, you're, and you're allowed to have your emotions. You're allowed to have your feeling. But if we. Start to engage in, in, in our, the conflict that we have,

Svea: Uhhuh,

Rick: if we engage in the conflict that we have in a way that's outside of the way of life that we see in Jesus Uhhuh.

Then it's like, it would be like a hand and a foot in the same body going to war with each other.

Svea: Mm.

Rick: It's just dumb.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: It's just dumb. And it wouldn't be like funny like an old Three Stooges show where, you know, like people would like hit each other, you know, and just go, no, I mean, it would just be, I would.

Okay.

Svea: It's like in me trying to hurt you. I'm hurting myself as well.

Rick: You are? Yes you are. You're married to physician. Mm-hmm. Um, I did not go to doctor class and seminary, um, miss that. But I know that there are diseases and there are maladies where the body attacks itself.

Svea: Uhhuh.

Rick: And that could be very, it could be deadly.

And be incredibly painful when we have conflict and we engage in conflict. That's anything different. We engage in a way that's different from, I'd rather be wronged. We engage in conflict in a way that doesn't perfectly line up with what we see in Jesus. It's the self-sacrificing love of Jesus that sprinted to the cross.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: We engage in conflict in any way that is not attuned to that. It is like a disease and where the body is attacking itself.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: And so. Let's don't do that.

Svea: So, you know, conflict is inevitable.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And. Just the presence of conflict. Mm-hmm. Doesn't mean that something has gone horribly wrong.

Rick: No.

Svea: But how we handle ourselves is Yeah. Is what you're talking about in that.

Rick: That's right. And let's don't, let's don't gloss over that too quickly. We could have deeply personal and painful conflict and no one has done anything more like we wrong.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: That's totally possible.

Svea: Mm-hmm. Um, something that, that you, at least some dots that got connected for me in this message that potentially I think could even change the way that I approach conflict and, uh, and my feelings about it.

Mm-hmm. From here on out was this idea. That even though maybe one of my wild cards has gotten activated mm-hmm. I don't necessarily have to have the other person be responsible for fixing that in me or healing that in me. That's right. Yeah. So like, if, if I've gotten triggered mm-hmm. In the sense of, oh, you've made me not feel like I'm I'm good enough here, or I'm feeling very inadequate, I don't now need to have you explain to me why I am good enough.

Yeah,

Svea: I can just let that go. Not hold you responsible for that. Take that to Jesus instead and do the hard work of, uh, of processing through some of those feelings with Jesus in a higher level way. Mm-hmm. Then

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Then I can put on your shoulders.

Rick: So let me see if I can add some light to it.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Like, like this, you know, you know, we like to, we don't wanna bring heat, we wanna bring light. Mm-hmm. We, we wanna bring clarity. Hopefully this brings clarity. If I have conflict with somebody and, and I'm playing one of my wild insecurity cards and I. Am looking to them to affirm my intelligence so that I can feel okay.

Not only am I putting something on them that they're not responsible for, I'm putting something on them that is impossible for them. There is no human being alive and there's no combination. Of human beings, that can be a sufficient foundation to make me feel okay about me, to provide what I need as far as significant security and satisfaction in life.

That can only come in Christ, the one in whose image I was made.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: And so if I'm mad at somebody. Or I'm hurt by somebody and I just, and I'm feeling a need for them to affirm something back to me so that I could feel okay. I am amplifying the hurt of that conflict by being unkind to them by putting a burden on them.

That it's impossible for them to carry.

Svea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The other thing that strikes me as you're saying that mm-hmm. Is if we do approach it that way mm-hmm. And we're seeking that from other people and we get it.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: We're training ourselves to keep trying to get it from other people rather than getting it from Christ.

Rick: Yeah. And it's kind of like, it's the law of diminishing returns. It just never works. You're never gonna be, you're never gonna be filled up, you're never gonna be complete. I, I think about this. Experience that Jesus had with the unnamed woman at the well. We read about it in John chapter four. We know that she's been through a lot of relationships.

I think she's been married five times. She's living with a guy. We don't, we don't know who's the fault. We don't know who's to blame. We don't know the backstory. We just know basic facts, basic details, and Jesus talks to her about him being a well. Of life that never went right. Mm-hmm. When you drink it, you'll, you drank from that?

Well, you'll never go thirsty again. Mm-hmm. And I don't know. I don't know if she was a person who was trying to extract kind of the sense of, I'm okay. I'm enough. I'm satisfied in life from people. I don't know if she was guilty of that, but if she was, Jesus is saying to her, no, no, no, no. I'm the only one that can ever satisfy that.

Mm-hmm. And to all of us who we are trying to extract that sense that I'm significant. I'm okay. Life is, life is fulfilling. We're trying to get it from somebody or something else. That thirst will never be satisfied. It'll only be quenched in Jesus.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And what he gets. 'cause he's the source of life.

That makes sense.

Svea: Yeah. I think when we do this

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: It helps us represent Jesus well.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And it makes Jesus look good. Yeah. Not, not in a fake kind of way, but people can see the goodness of Jesus through how we treat each other. Mm-hmm. And how we understand his love for us. Mm-hmm. And his desire for us.

To become this more mature version of ourselves. The contrast is also true, that when we are just engaged in, in, in ugly interpersonal conflict and we're demanding things from each other that are not fair to put on mm-hmm. Other people. Mm-hmm. We make Jesus look bad. And then back in the context of First Corinthians, this was Paul's argument that the way you guys are treating each other

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: You're making Jesus look bad.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: You know, cut it out.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. We're turning into Bridezillas Uhhuh, you know, we are the bride of Christ as the, as the church, and we are just throwing as just an ugly tantrum.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Making it all about ourselves and making him look bad.

Svea: So that's kind of an ecclesiological framework.

Yeah. For understanding mm-hmm. The points out of this passage. How about the third one? You said there's also a leadership lesson involved in this.

Rick: Now I'm gonna share something that I think is helpful but it may not be encouraging.

Svea: Okay.

Rick: All right. Are you ready?

Svea: I'm ready.

Rick: Anybody who wants to sit in a position of leadership you have a disposition of leader, you care about others, you want to, you wanna invest in other people.

You wanna help them you wanna help them thrive, you wanna help them grow, you wanna help them accomplish something, I promise you, you're going to be. You will be misunderstood. And it is impossible to communicate everything that needs to be communicated to everyone so that everyone exhaustively understands every aspect of everything that you're trying to do.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Now you can communicate enough, you could be clear enough, but you're never gonna be able to, to live up to that standard that you can exhaustively communicate everything that possibly could be understand, stood by every single person. Are you with me? And then add to that, if you are leading multiple people.

There might be times where you have to engage one person with some accountability conversations, and that accountability conversation should be confidential because you wanna, you wanna respect that person's dignity, but kind of the impact of some of the things that they did or didn't do impacts other people on the team.

And other people want insight into stuff and you just can't share all of the information. You give them enough clarity, but you can't give 'em access to everything. Are you tracking with me? Mm-hmm. And so those people are gonna be. Maybe if they're not putting trust in the gap, disappointed, frustrated, and assuming something about you and wanting you to explain more than you can explain.

And if you're gonna be a leader. If you're gonna be a leader, sometimes you just gotta be willing to take the hit.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: You have to be able to be okay with being misunderstood. You have to be okay with the sense of being misrepresented. You have to be okay with being wronged or feeling cheated so that you can really serve those well who are looking you, looking to you for leadership.

Svea: So what does that look like to serve people well with our own tolerance of being wronged or cheated or misrepresented or misunderstood?

Rick: Yeah. Lemme see if I can, lemme see if I can answer the question with the, with the clarity and thoughtfulness that it deserves. Sometimes it's just gonna be someone saying, I don't understand why you would do that.

That decision doesn't make any sense to me. And you know. You have access to information that would give all the clarity.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: But if you shared all the information, you would end up wronging someone else.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: By disclosing something that's just not fair to disclose. Sure. Right?

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Maybe that other person was in the wrong, or maybe they fell short or just.

Are, are you, are you tracking with me?

Svea: Yeah. I have experienced this.

Rick: Okay. So you just say, you know what I understand. I'm just, I'm just gonna ask you to, to trust me on that. And if it's difficult to trust me, well, I can accept that too, but mm-hmm. You're not gonna set the record straight because if you did set the record straight, you would end up.

Painting somebody else in a bad light, and you would just rather not do that because you love them. And the self-sacrificing disposition of being a follower of Jesus that's informed by what he did on the cross is, you know what? I'll take the hits so somebody else doesn't have to.

Svea: Yeah. Well, and maybe it's not even that you'd paint someone in a bad light.

Mm-hmm. It might just be that you have information that isn't yours to be able to share.

Rick: Oh, that's another thing.

Svea: Yeah. And so telling the person that you're saying, I can't share all of the information mm-hmm. With you.

Rick: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Svea: Please trust that if the tables were turned, I would grant you the same respect and not inappropriately share something about you to someone else.

Rick: Absolutely.

Svea: And, and, uh mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's difficult. As a leader to be able to take those hits

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: And not take it personally. Mm-hmm. But to see that there's a, a way that in taking the hit, kind of like in the way that Jesus took hits

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: On our behalf mm-hmm. That it's really out of a sense of love for other people.

Rick: That's right.

Svea: And it's not about us, it's not a personal thing. Mm-hmm. It's not, this is how I'm defining my worth mm-hmm. Or my value. But more I'm willing to do this because this is how I show love and respect and care and compassion. Mm-hmm. And even justice. Yep. For other people.

Rick: Yep. I would rather be wounded than unnecessarily wound someone else by sharing something that just doesn't have to be shared.

Svea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rick: If you're gonna be a leader. If you're gonna, if you're gonna be the leader of a, of a sales team at a, at a retail location, if you're going to be a leader of a medical team, if you're gonna be a charge nurse, if you're gonna lead a, a school classroom, if you're gonna lead kids in your home, like in all kinds of different arenas of leadership, if you're leading a little league baseball team.

Listen, you're going to experience this in some way. In some way or another. Mm-hmm. And embracing a cruciform lifestyle is saying, you know what? Yeah. I just, I really would sometimes just rather be wronged than. Setting the record straight or kind of getting the heat off of me and causing the heat to be placed on someone else.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: As a leader, I choose not to do that.

Svea: So I just wanna to emphasize and mm-hmm. And be clear, we're not talking about tolerating abuse or behavior mm-hmm. That, uh, is, is inappropriately grievous to God.

Rick: Sure.

Svea: Um, but, uh, but that there is. A time and a place for just accepting, being wronged.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And being,

Rick: being

Svea: cheated.

Rick: Lemme give, let me give you an example, right? So maybe maybe you are a manager in a store and you have different people on your team. They're looking to you for leadership. Your job is to, to set the schedule and, and to work with people. And you've got somebody on your team that they can't work a shift or maybe they can't work a string of shifts because they've got something, um, very difficult that they're dealing with and it's confidential and you can't share it.

And they don't want anybody shoot. Anybody else to know because they just couldn't handle that kind of attention. And so you're gonna shift the, the schedule around. And some people might be frustrated with you, I don't understand why they can't work on this day and, and I was supposed to have this day off.

And you say, I understand, but this is the change we need to make. And that employee still doesn't understand why their schedule got changed and they're gonna be mad at you and you're just gonna say. Okay. I, listen, I understand your disappointment. If I were you, I'd probably be disappointed too. But this is just an adjustment we need to make.

Now you could say, Hey, let me tell you something about Joe over here and, and this kind of situation that he's in, and that other person, that employee would go, well, now I understand. Well, he had no choice but to make this decision and I'll do my best. But now Joe is, he's gotta carry this weight to the fact that you couldn't carry the weight of confidentiality.

Mm-hmm. Does that make, like mm-hmm. That's sounds like a real world situation that I've just made up on. Fly here. Uhhuh, but we can come up with a thousand other different situations where if you're a leader who's living the cruciform life, you just say Yeah, no, I'll take the head on that one.

Svea: Yeah.

Okay. So here's where I wanna end, because I think what you just brought out helps to maybe give some clarity on the kind of mindset of when we can go down, like the decision making tree mm-hmm. Of when this is an appropriate time to try to seek. Justice Clarity, let me correct mm-hmm. The misperceptions here.

Mm-hmm. And when there's times when we just say, I'm just gonna be okay with taking the hit.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Um, like in, in the examples that you've given, I think the mindset is I can't share everything that I know. Mm-hmm. Or do everything that I might want to, to protect myself because I have someone else's best interest at heart.

Rick: That's right. Yeah.

Svea: And that's a very different mindset than my own self-interest. That's right. Is what's at heart.

Rick: You know, I, I never want at tire of talking about this and I hope we never tire of hearing about this. This is part of mutual submission. This is part of considering the needs of others more important than our own.

This is supposed to be the modus operandi within the church. This is just our default position that your needs are more important than than my needs. And I'm gonna submit to you and you're gonna do that. And you're gonna, you're gonna do that to me, and we're gonna, we're gonna do that for each other.

And that's really, it does require quite a bit of, quite a bit of trust.

Svea: Trust and humility.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Absolutely.

Svea: Yeah. Well, this has been a fun passage to think through and to think through how it impacts us at different levels of engagement, whether it's a. Theology or the way we behave with each other in the church or mm-hmm.

How we function as leaders, even outside the church context in our mm-hmm. In the marketplace as well.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Um, thanks for bringing some of these things out.

Rick: Say it's been fun.