Church is Messy

Church Is Messy, 03-25-2026 Ep138
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Rick: Good mornings, Svea, welcome to another episode of the Church's Messy podcast. How are you?

Svea: Hey, Rick. I'm doing well. How are you?

Rick: Well, I'm gonna see if I can fix that. Oh, I am in the driver's seat today. The roles are reversed. I get to ask obnoxious questions and make you be more clear, uh, than you were on this, this past weekend.

You know, like, you like to elbow me with questions that, uh, I'm sometimes not exactly ready.

Svea: Oh, no. See, I'm just representing people that got so much outta your preaching. Yeah. They just can't wait to get a little more.

Rick: I actually think you do a fantastic, a fantastic job. And I love our conversations and I've got big shoes to fill.

And so, and this as, as things are reversed a little bit. You saying got big feet, you've got big feets. Svea, you got skis down there. I

Svea: have very normal size eight lady feet.

Rick: I was using a metaphorically. Metaphorically, not literally. Alright.

So, uh, you, you seem a little punchy today. Did you come in here ready to spar with me? What's happening?

Svea: I, I'm ready to go. Let's have some fun.

Rick: Okay. Alright. So this past weekend. We dove into one Corinthians 13.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: The Love chapter.

Svea: The Love chapter.

Rick: And, uh, tell me a little bit about what were you thinking going into preaching the Love chapter, because a lot of people have ideas about this chapter, especially if you've ever been to a wedding anywhere, whether it's religious or irreligious.

It's like, this is just used as like poetry for couples who are getting married and. All of the swirly hallmark syrupy kind of,

Svea: well, can I be honest with you? Yeah. The only reason that I agreed to preach through the love chapter

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: Was because the two that I got to choose from was this or the other chapter that's coming up on singleness and slavery.

Rick: And so you're like, you're giving that to Caleb

Svea: and Yeah, I just thought, well, the love chapter is not quite as bad as that.

Rick: Did you pick the love chapter? 'cause you're a lady pastor.

Svea: Oh no, I knew that was coming up.

Rick: I'm in so much trouble.

Svea: There was actually someone who came up to me in the lobby, a good friend of mine who won't mind me, uh, having this pointed out.

Yeah. That, uh, she said, you know, when I realized. That the lady pastor was preaching the love chapter. I thought this was gonna be the gust, most icky romantic chapter ever. And she's like, you were relatively unemotional in this message.

Rick: Oh wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Svea: I was like, yeah, that wasn't where I was going but that's because that's not where Paul was going with it.

Rick: No. This is a recipe, uh, for a church to basically live like Christ. In the context of dealing with all kinds of difficulty of their own making.

And while you can't apply it to merits, it's just not what it's about.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was helpful for me. Mm-hmm. As I was really embedding myself in the context of this passage to realize like, this has nothing to do with romantic love.

But that's not to mean that the application of it doesn't work. Very, very well in marriage. Oh, sure.

Rick: Oh

Svea: sure. So it's still highly appropriate to read at a wedding, but that's not at all where Paul's head was.

Rick: Now the feeling of excitement for preaching a passage doesn't necessarily trigger when you find out what passage you're preaching.

Mm-hmm. But somewhere along the journey. Yeah. Somewhere in the process you have

Svea: to get, get the passion for it.

Rick: I can't wait to share this with people. Yes. So what were some of those things you're like, I just, I am a, I'm delivering something that's been meaningful to me and I think it's gonna be meaningful to others and I can't wait for them to hear or get.

This? Yeah. What was, what was that? Or some of those

Svea: things. Oh, I very much had that experience with this. Okay. Because, yeah, as I jokingly admit, I wasn't that enthusiastic about getting this particular text when we did our, our, uh, preaching assignments.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And yet, as I. Spent time studying the text.

Mm-hmm. And really got to what the actual reason for why Paul's talking about love. Mm-hmm. And then to realize he's casting this vision for what it looks like to be spiritually mature and the way that we use our gifts and the way that we regard other people. Then that passion for this text began to to just grow and grow and kind of simultaneous.

Um, I'd been developing this framework that I shared as part of this message, um, with a number of people. And I would just watched light bulbs go off for them as I would share this.

Rick: It's wild. It's wild how you can see that happen for people while you're mm-hmm.

Svea: Appreciate it's so exciting.

And so, kind of simultaneously. Studying this passage and then also sharing this six stage framework of common stages to our spiritual journey with other people. And seeing how that was just unlocking insights for people and realizing this framework is pointing to exactly what Paul is pointing to in this passage.

Those two things kind of converged. Mm-hmm. And realized, I think this is a, a helpful way of applying this passage.

Rick: We're gonna talk about that framework in a few minutes. Mm-hmm. But just real quick, I wanna ask you, is this something brand new or is this something that's been around but for whatever reason, it hasn't necessarily trickled down into the pews.

Yeah. Where people get it?

Svea: No, it has been around for a while. Yeah. Um. The, I have the second edition text of it that I think was published in 2015. Mm-hmm. Um, I think originally it was in the early two thousands when it was first published. And I had heard this framework about almost six years ago now.

Mm-hmm. And I remember being fascinated by it. Mm-hmm. And the concept of hitting the wall

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And what comes after the wall mm-hmm. Um, had a very helpful effect on my own understanding of my spiritual health. Mm-hmm. But uh, but it wasn't something that I had kind of retained in everyday use. Until, uh, I've read it in a few other spiritual formation texts over the last couple of years and it just kind of keeps coming back and it's been on my mind and

Rick: yeah.

Svea: So pulled it off the shelf and dusted it off and

Rick: well, I look forward to talking about that a little bit more in a few minutes. But first I wanna ask you, this is just one of my go-to questions, and I could be the first time I've asked you this, especially when you were excited about a passage. Mm-hmm.

And there's some big ideas. Not everything fits into a 30 to 35 minute, right. So what was left on the cutting room floor that you were kind of geeked out about, but you just weren't able to squeeze it into the message? What did we miss out on? This is your opportunity to explore some of those things.

Svea: Yeah. Well, there's a couple things in the framework that I was really geeking out about that I didn't get to talk about. So we'll probably hit that in a little bit. There's a section of this passage that I'll just admit off the top, I did not develop to the extent that it deserved to be. Mm-hmm. And I'm.

Kicking the ball back to you. And, you know, that's that passage, the section at the end of this chapter about where tongues are stilled and knowledge ceases. Mm-hmm. You know, and I took the, uh, the clear route of that Paul's pointing us. Forward to a time when, when we'll be with Jesus face to face.

Mm-hmm. And those kinds of methods of communication won't be necessary. Mm-hmm. But there's so much more that can be said there.

Rick: Sure.

Svea: Um, for the, the implications for, for tongues. But I know that's your,

Rick: I'm gonna talk about

Svea: your focus next week.

Rick: I, it will be a focus, not the focus, but it will be, it'll be a focus and hopefully we'll bring some clarity, but we're not gonna settle.

Debates,

Svea: does that mean that your actual focus is gonna be why it's disgraceful for women to speak in church?

Rick: Yeah. Why They should be quiet

Svea: because that comes up in the next chapter too.

Rick: We're gonna, we're gonna talk about that. I'm, I'm, yeah. We're gonna spend, uh, uh, a significant, a significant amount of time addressing probably at least three things.

And they're all unified under one common theme, and I'll reveal that, um, in the, in the coming sermon, but tongues, and then who needs to be quiet and why? And then structuring your service in such a way that those who aren't Christians are welcomed and it makes sense to them.

Svea: Mm, mm-hmm. I look forward to that.

Rick: So we'll talk about that, but we're not talking about that yet. We're talking about, we're about your, your service. Is there anything else on the, uh, on the cutting room floor? You'd just love to have more, more time.

Svea: Yeah. You know, there was a, a, an early draft

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: That was looking at why Paul might have just been so keyed into mm-hmm.

The importance of love.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Because I think oftentimes Paul specifically gets a bad rap for being kind of a harsh black and white mm-hmm. Kind of guy. Mm-hmm. Saying things that just come across as maybe being maybe. Um, a little unempathetic mm-hmm. Towards people that he's talking to. He certainly doesn't pull any punches when he's correcting.

Rick: There is a narrative about Paul. Mm-hmm. There's just like, just common thoughts about Paul and he's read through that narrative and I just, I don't think that narrative does injustice. He,

Svea: yeah,

Rick: he does. He's

Svea: a complex character.

Rick: He very, he's intelligent, empathetic resilient kind. Yeah.

Svea: Yeah. So I think it, it would've been fun to, to tease that out Sure.

A little bit more and just see how some of these most beautiful words ever written about love

Are from the pen of someone who is so often criticized as lacking it.

Rick: And you know what's fascinating? That these words were written by someone who appears to be deeply frustrated and disappointed.

These are, this is the chapter that stands as the hallmark of, of what love is. And people go to it and, and people memorize it. And people they, like we talked about, included in wigs, but it was written by a guy who was writing with a broken heart because he just wanted so much better

Svea: mm-hmm.

Rick: For the church. And so I think that should probably frame how we, or help to reframe how we, yeah. How we see this guy, he wasn't riding with a hard edge.

Svea: Yeah. No, he, he wanted better.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: For the people who are reading this you know, and I, I did mention this in the pass or in the message, but in this passage for the time of my life that I had written in spe a is Hmm.

Spe a is kind.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And uh, and clearly

Rick: that was aspirational.

Svea: Yeah. That was Steve's reaction too. Yeah. Um, that I think that's another dimension to this passage that that helped to kind of fuel some of the passion that I had for this. Yeah. Because that description of love while beautiful. And while we can all kind of aim towards it at times in our life, we know we all fall short.

Rick: Yeah.

We

Svea: do love that. Absolutely. There's, there's very few people that I think can live up to that kind of a description. Yeah. Of love and, uh, and so what we can't do is then feel like, well, that's unattainable.

And stop trying.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: But just trying to muscle our way to it too. Doesn't work either.

Rick: So let's go back to the beginning. You told the story at the beginning of the sermon that when I first heard it, like I couldn't breathe, I was dying laughing. And, uh, it's. But the response of love, why is it so important? How do, you can talk about it a little bit.

Svea: Yeah. I wanted to share that story.

Yeah. Of, of my friend, you know, having this awkward moment mm-hmm. The wedding. Mm-hmm. Bowing at the priest and then bowing his way backwards, causing this huge spectacle. I wanted to share that story 'cause I thought it illustrates how something done with a pure heart of love. Yeah. Even if done.

Imperfectly,

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: Is so much better than actions done flawlessly, but without any kind of regard for the people around you.

Rick: But I was also taken by the fact that the bride and groom responded. Yeah. Gently and lovingly. It's not too hard to imagine a scenario in which not your friend would be a bridezilla, but a bridezilla might just like, how dare you, you know?

And be mad at them for ruining the moment. You know, it does, it didn't match necessarily how it was imagined to go.

Svea: No. It was the perfect bride and groom to happen too. 'cause they were personalities that, to them that was just like seeing their friend's heart on display and they were not the type that were so focused on appearances, but on personalities.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. And we just see the power of love cover's multitude of sins. Not necessarily that, that the guy sin, but he did miss the mark.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: A little bit. And what was supposed to be, was supposed to be done. And it shows how it, you see the person. More so than you see anything else. Well,

Svea: and ultimately if we adopted that disposition towards life, there's so much freedom in that, right?

Oh yeah. If we just, both for ourselves know as long as what's coming through is that I love the people around me. Mm-hmm. And that I'm motivated that way. 'cause I want what's good for them and I'm trying my best to act with a love. That's evident here. Mm-hmm. That there's freedom in that. That we're not as focused on performance.

Mm-hmm. But on our motivation.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And if we're receiving that from other people

That, you know, I can tell they were trying their hardest. Yeah. They're well intended and we're looking for good intentions in other people rather than looking at performance. I think that just, that gets us far in life.

Rick: You know who I wanna have a cup of coffee.

Svea: Who's that?

Rick: The priest Dude. Tell me what you were thinking in that moment. Was it hard to keep it together? Were you annoyed Just what was, had you ever experienced anything like that before? Alright, so let's pivot to the framework.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And so we'll run through it real quickly.

There are kinda six, six different categories. Seven, if you count. The wall uhhuh. And so the first one is discovering, and this is just really you becoming aware of who Jesus is and that he's the savior in your need of him. And that's, that's a,

Svea: yeah. Discovering that he wants to be in relationship with you.

Rick: Quite literally a life changing, eternity changing discovery. Mm-hmm. After that comes learning and learning is just a big part. We never stop. And, and I think that's key. Mm-hmm. Do you wanna talk about that a little bit? Because it's not like, uh, different squares. On a game board,

Svea: right.

Rick: As you're, you're tracking through.

Yeah.

Svea: This learning stage is not like the elementary school level mm-hmm. Of spiritual growth, where it's like there's some basics that you have to learn and then you leave it behind.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Uh, but rather it's, you're beginning to develop these skills of learning mm-hmm. That you're gonna continue doing for a lifetime.

Rick: The word disciple. It just means a learner.

And rabbi means, means teacher. And so that's just a permanent part of who we are as followers of Jesus. We are learning from him. We're apprentices. We are learning from him. Followers, we are what is, what's the direction he's setting?

What instruction is he giving? And would we want to, we want take that as framing us. All right. So that's permanent.

Svea: No, I will say, mm. Especially when someone comes to faith as an adult.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: We tend to see a high degree of excitement and enthusiasm in this stage. Mm-hmm. As they're like discovering a new way of seeing the world.

A new worldview. They're unlocking insights about this relationship that they have with God.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And we truly see that sponge-like kind of like just wanting to get their hands on more and more and more.

Rick: Yeah. This is probably something that's different from say, a 12-year-old who says, I, I wanna trust and follow Jesus.

That adult, they're not just seeing themselves differently, they're not just imagining their future differently. They're seeing their past differently. Mm-hmm. And it's probably a 12 year old's not doing that.

Svea: Yeah. Well, or for those of us who grew up in the church mm-hmm. We're, we've kind of immersed ourselves in that learning phase.

Yeah. Without intention.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: It's just been the water we swam in.

And so that phase may not be quite as distinct mm-hmm. For someone who is a, a child believer.

Rick: Alright. So that kinda first phase after discovering it's highly characterized by learning. That's not the only thing that's going on, but that's.

Dominant thi you're

Svea: taking in a lot of awareness and information. Mm-hmm.

Rick: After that comes, next is doing, and you're not only doing, you're still learning, there's still even things that are being discovered, but. It doing is the dominant theme. Why is that?

Svea: Well, another term for this stage is the productive life.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: Like you're beginning to live productively. Hmm. And live out your faith in a way. Mm-hmm. That is showing that it's not just something that you're cognitively in alignment with, but that you're actually mm-hmm. Um. Doing life according to your beliefs.

Rick: Okay, now listen, I'm, it's not my intent to be funny or judgmental or pejorative or anything like that, but what we've discovered, what we've discussed so far, for the longest time, I thought that is the Christian life.

Mm-hmm. You discover Jesus, uh, you grow and write beliefs, and then you grow and write behavior and that's the Christian life. And I guess some people get to a point where they're bored with that or they don't want that and they're out and maybe they deconstruct. But VEA for the longest time, and certainly in the church culture I grew up in, that was it.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: That was everything.

Svea: Yeah. Well, and I

Rick: think what's wrong with me,

Svea: I don't think it's wrong with you. I think that's the discipleship methods. Mm-hmm. That certainly you and I grew up with.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Uh, I think that's been historically for the last. Number of decades. Mm-hmm. The way that the church has discipled people.

Mm-hmm. And I think a big reason for that is that's what's easy mm-hmm. For churches to be able to do. I, I mentioned this in the message. This is the kind of thing that we can program for people. Sure. We can provide opportunities to learn, we can provide opportunities to serve. Mm-hmm. So it's relatively straightforward in the kind of thing that can be facilitated mm-hmm.

For other people, because later stages tend to be a lot more introspective. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and individual mm-hmm. As far as something that can be done more corporately.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: Now, if you really wanna get. Off the deep end and here you can start to think about where money is found in the Evangelical machine with, we can produce Bible studies mm-hmm.

That people can buy. We can publish books that people can get their hands on. We can have conferences and things that are promoting this kind of Right. Beliefs. Mm-hmm. Right. Behavior.

Rick: Sure. And we need learning and we need. The productive life. Mm-hmm. We, we need, these

Svea: are essential things. We

Rick: absolutely,

Svea: we can't mature without this foundation,

Rick: need those things without even a, a negative view or looking at scans at, uh, at the publishing industry.

There is just, is no way to monetize being contemplative.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: But we're gonna get to that in a second. I'm, I'm jumping ahead. Let's talk about the wall and. Just tell us I think we get the metaphor, you're, you're bumping into something, your progress is, is stopped. And it might even it might even be painful.

Could be frustrating. Confusing. Talk to us a little bit about the wall.

Svea: Yeah. Well the, you know, the wall is not a one size fits all experience. Mm-hmm. And it's going to look differently for different people. But what does seem to be common mm-hmm. Is that at some point, and it may be at multiple points that we're gonna hit a stage where it just feels like the growth that we had been enjoying mm-hmm.

Has stalled out. The certainty Yeah. That we thought we had in our relationship with Jesus. Mm-hmm. Just feels less certain. Okay. And it could be just because of the rise of doubts. Mm-hmm. It could be a life circumstance that seems to throw things upside down. It could just be a weariness with.

Right beliefs, right Actions no longer producing the same kind of excitement. There's a, a part of, of, when I talk about this framework, something that I like to bring out that I didn't have time for in the message is that in these first three stages, there does seem to be a. An awareness of the presence of God.

Mm-hmm. That can be feeding and exciting and thrilling.

And at some point that can kind of fade away. And there's a, an analogy with with human romantic relationships. Sure. Like initially when you're dating someone, when you're engaged, when you're newlywed there is just this excitement and this, you know, the literal honeymoon period in a relationship.

And then over time, as the relationship matures mm-hmm. Some of that kind of initial excitement mm-hmm. Just becomes ordinary.

Rick: So Heather and I have only been married 26 years, so the excitement's gonna fade because we're

Svea: Oh, if we get all this fire, huh?

Rick: No, I know it, I know it, but it, it becomes something better.

Svea: Yeah, it becomes something on the other side of the wall is a deeper intimacy, a more secure place. It's so much better, but it does take some work to get from the fading of excitement to the settled sense of security.

Rick: Yes. Yeah. But like, but we see that in our relationships. Mm-hmm. You know, there is, there's some, yeah.

Okay.

Svea: And isn't that beautiful that Yeah. You know, God is the one who wired our brain for relationship. So doesn't it make sense that he would interact with us in the same way? Yeah. That he programmed us to work with other people too. Okay. Because our, our relationship with God is a relationship.

Rick: So can I. Can I interject and talk about me?

Svea: I would expect you would Go ahead.

Rick: So, so last night I go home and, uh, Heather and I are basically in this empty nester phase. It's modified because our son still lives in the basement and then he's about to move out and then I think our daughter's gonna move, uh, back in.

But you know, they're out doing. Doing their thing. It was just Heather and the dog and me at home. Mm-hmm. And I got home from work and the sun was still out and it was nice. And it just felt good and, uh. I wrapped up my day. Heather wrapped up her day, and so we just, we tackled some domestic chores together.

Mm-hmm. I was on the vacuuming and floor cleaning team, and she was good job. She was doing dusting, which I did not want to do. Dusting, I was hoping I would not be

Svea: really

Rick: drafted.

Svea: You would rather vacuum than dust. Yeah.

Rick: I,

Svea: I would totally dust over vacuum.

Rick: No. And so she was happy to death, so I'm like, I'm, I'm taking the.

I'm taking the machine and I'm, I'm doing it. And, uh, then we made dinner and then we just hung out and just the two of us at the table and talking. And then, um, it just, it was just a total chi. It was the kind of evening that you were never going to hear a love song about.

Svea: Right?

Rick: Mm-hmm. And there's never gonna be like a, like a movie or a rom-com or TV show, kind of built around that.

But it's like, it's incredibly, it's like the sweet, it's like we worked decades, a couple of decades, two and a half decades to kinda get to. To this, and it's just sweet. It's just like cleaning the house is sweetness and it's good and it's relaxed, and we're just talking about our day and connecting and all of that kinda stuff, right?

Svea: Yeah. Yeah,

Rick: it's good.

Svea: It's good.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: That's good.

Rick: How does that relate to this conversation?

Svea: So I think that's the kind of experience where when you get into stages four, five, and six mm-hmm. And we're so much more focused on just being with Jesus Mm. And becoming the kind of person who just enjoys his presence and has that sense of, we've been through thick and thin together.

And, uh, and I can just enjoy this relationship not because of what God is doing. Yeah. In my life, but because of who God is.

Rick: Yeah. Alright, so I know you said this, I know you made it clear in the sermon. I just want you to repeat it. You're hitting the wall, you're not defective. No. It doesn't mean something's wrong with you.

Nope. And the learning stage and, and the doing stage, they're not having the same sort of impact as they were. Before, but that probably is by God's design because there's something next that we're ready for.

Svea: Yeah. And this is where I was getting at, where, initially where God does seem to give us this beautiful period of excitement in our new faith with him.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, and a real sense of his presence with us and, and the enjoyment of that. When that begins to fade, it's not like he's taking it away as a punishment. Mm. Or that he's now decided, oh, maybe you weren't all that I thought you were. Mm-hmm. And you don't deserve my presence. Mm-hmm. The way you once had it.

Mm-hmm. It's, it's not that he's withdrawing it mm-hmm. For negative reasons, it might be the opposite. Mm-hmm. It might be that rather than us becoming kind of addicted to this feeling that he's withdrawing some of that extra, dopamine mm-hmm. That we have in our relationship mm-hmm. To drive us to something far better.

Yeah. Far deeper. Mm-hmm. Far more sustainable. And that, uh, he may be where for a period of time, maybe we've had certain issues in our life that he's just kind of freed us from having to struggle through that. It may be the period of our life where he says, okay, now it's time to actually deal with that.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: Because I love you too much. To just let you continue on. That way it's time for us to do some inner work and some healing.

Rick: So stage four is contemplating.

Yeah. That's the dominant theme. We're still learning, we're still doing stuff. Mm-hmm. We're still having a protective life, but now we've pivoted to contemplating.

And as we've talked about this, I, the passage that jumps out in my mind is Psalm one. Mm.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: And there, there are so many other psalms and other passages, especially Proverbs as well, that, that feed into this, but it's the, it's the settling down and meditating on and being reflective. And yet I feel like there's something about church culture sometimes that feels like it has an allergy to that.

Svea: Mm.

Rick: Can you talk to that? Do you think I'm off on a skinny branch, or do you sense that maybe sometimes we can have a little bit of an allergy to that as well?

Svea: No, I think you're right. I think you're right. I think. We get a little bit nervous mm-hmm. At words like contemplating mm-hmm. At words like meditating.

Mm-hmm. Even though it's all throughout the Bible.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: We get a little bit nervous about things that do require some introspection. Mm-hmm. And, and somewhat with some reason because. The, our faith is not meant to be done some alone. So what are some Okay. We're supposed to be doing faith in community.

That's

Rick: right.

Svea: And we do need certain guardrails mm-hmm. In our interpretation mm-hmm. Of our life and our understanding of God. Mm-hmm. Guardrails of scripture. Yeah. In this con contemplative mm-hmm. Stage, we're never going to arrive at conclusions that contradict scripture or truth or the things that our community of faith would affirm as orthodox.

Rick: Okay. Alright. So that's contemplating next is. Becoming. Becoming, becoming. And if someone wanted to say, but aren't you becoming someone all along, the answer is yes.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: But why is becoming the dominant theme of this stage? You're still learning, still doing. So for all of these stages, you

Svea: know, first three, discovering, learning, doing in the second three are contemplating, becoming and loving.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: We're actually doing all six of these things. Mm-hmm. Throughout our entire spiritual journey. Mm-hmm. It's just a different. In these stages. Mm-hmm. Those become kind of the priority Yeah. Of where we're putting mm-hmm. A lot of our energy and a lot of our focus, even while we're still doing all of the other things.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: So in this stage five becoming, this is when we've let go of doing things for God because it's the right thing to do.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And we're doing things because it's who we are. Mm. It's who we've become. Mm-hmm. We're really seeking to be like. Jesus in every aspect of our lives. And so even though a lot of the actions in our life in stage three and stage five might look identical on the outside, our motivation for why we're doing it has shifted from I'm doing it because the right actions to, I'm doing it because.

This is what Jesus would do, and I wanna be just like him.

Rick: So this is where the penny drops, where we talk about who you're becoming is far more important than what you're doing. Mm-hmm. And we never mean to imply that what you're, what you're doing

Svea: isn't important.

Rick: It's massively important. It's just who you're becoming is so much more mm-hmm.

Important.

Svea: It's kind of like in our physical health.

Rick: Yes.

Svea: You know, in, uh, in January, how many of us set New Year's resolutions mm-hmm. To eat better mm-hmm. And work out more. But there's a big difference between. Making a, a food choice or a gym choice. Mm-hmm. Because it's what you feel like you ought to do.

And doing it because it's just who you are. Yeah. And the lifestyle that you've adopted,

Rick: you could do it 'cause you know that it's right. And because you trust it and you see that it's good and you believe all it. But you're right. There is a different when that is, that's the, that's who you are.

Svea: Mm-hmm. And it, you don't get to just choose that and have it happen overnight. There's a process of becoming a healthy person.

Rick: There's no microwave setting for that. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Svea: Nope. It takes both hard work and it takes mindset shift and time.

Rick: So what distinguishes. That stage from the, from the final stage, the, the loving stage.

'cause clearly people are loving all along. Yeah. But why does that become the dominant theme and what's distinct about it?

Svea: Yeah. I think something in that last stage is when someone isn't focused on becoming as much as they have become. Hmm. It's more. A destination is what I was trying to refer to it as.

It's, it's, they've arrived at this place where now instead of being so consciously aware of, I want to react with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and so forth. Yeah. They do it instinctively. Yeah. Because they've been practicing it for so long. That it's just the reflexive action they have at that point.

Rick: Okay.

Svea: Takes so long. Yeah. You know, and I think. It would be hard even for someone who's still working.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: To be able to get there. 'cause it's just gonna take time. Yeah. And margin. And space and rest.

Rick: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hey, I thought it'd be fun if I just ran through the list of all the pastors on staff and you tell us which stage you think that there it's,

Svea: well, I'll sing with love for my brothers and sister.

I don't think any of us have made it to stage six yet.

Rick: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. It just

Svea: seems we are, we are also. Still on the journey there.

Rick: I, we talked about this. Who do you know? And I know, I think one person, and I think when I think about it in that way, there's one person, like you seem like that to me.

Maybe two. I got two people in my in my mind. Yeah. It's just, it's a, like, I don't, I don't know how you get there without gray hair. Yeah. This is, this is a lifelong process. It's just, just sanctification is a lifelong journey.

Svea: Yeah. Well, and and it's not directly proportional to age.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: It's not that you get there once you have finally gotten a head full of gray hair.

Rick: Oh yeah.

Svea: It's not an inevitable thing to arrive at by any means. It is going to be, both the place that you've arrived at with intentionality.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: But also in partnership with the spirit.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Because if we think we can just force our way there.

We're missing the point. Yeah. We didn't actually become like Jesus in the stage five section first.

Rick: Alright, I'm gonna ask you a question. Hopefully you squirm. Hopefully I'm able to accomplish you feeling the thing that make me feel. We've

Svea: got a staff meeting starting in eight minutes here,

Rick: so I'm, we can do it.

Svea: Okay.

Rick: Let's pick, I'm gonna pick an easy one, patience, and I want you to just quickly run through how someone might be engaging. Patience through, we'll start with through the different stages, stage two through six. 'cause they're discovering Jesus and, and maybe had just enamored with Jesus's patient with me and yet he loved me and all this kind of stuff, so now I'm following him.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: And so it learning, doing, contemplating, becoming. Loving.

Svea: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, learning patience might be the kind of thing where you're starting to pay attention in Bible studies. Mm-hmm. And sermons and podcasts. When people talk about patience and you realize. Oh, maybe the Bible is saying something specific about patients.

Mm-hmm. That's better than what culture is saying about patients. Mm. And you just begin to get little glimpses Okay. Of, you know, this is talking about patients that's like long suffering. Mm. You know, it's not just patients for not blowing up at my kids when they irritate me. Mm-hmm. But it's like acknowledging that.

There are gonna be circumstances that feel like suffering. Mm-hmm. And instead of blowing up about it, I can just take a deep breath

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: And keep my cool

Rick: mm-hmm.

Svea: And maintain some patience. And I'm doing that because God has the same attitude towards me. Okay. All right. So there's kind of this awareness, this learning, this developing some vision for what this could be.

Rick: So we're moving from learning into doing,

Svea: into doing.

Rick: What is distinct about that now?

Svea: Now in doing, now you're thinking in terms of I want to be a more patient person, so this might be asking God. They say don't ever pray for patients. Yeah. Because they'll give you all kinds of opportunities to do it.

Mm-hmm. But it might even just be to say, mm-hmm. Hey, God, would you make me aware of where I'm not patient? Mm-hmm. And when I have an opportunity

To practice this. Just help me see this. Mm-hmm. Let me become aware of where I'm being patient. Mm-hmm. Where I'm not, give me practice opportunities here.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: I'm setting an intention

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: To try to develop this in my life.

Rick: Maybe you start slowing down, maybe you start listening more, maybe you start praying about it and uh, you're just like, alright, I recognize that I feel impatient and I'm choosing to be patient.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Alright. But you hit,

it's

Svea: probably gonna make you hit the wall,

Rick: but you hit the wall.

It's easy to hit the wall with patience, man.

Svea: Yeah.

Rick: Easy. Easy to hit the

Svea: wall with patience. And look, I've never been more aware of how impatient I am. And that can be very upsetting. And so that might throw you into the stage four contemplative period of, yeah. So what is it in my soul? Mm. That is triggering the sense of impatience.

Mm. Why am I impatient? What is it that when my kids do that, it makes me react that way? What is it that when my coworker says that thing, I just wanna fly off the handle? You know? Or what is the thing that I can't. Just seem to let go because I'm waiting for it to happen and it's not happening on my timetable.

You know? Is it like a mm-hmm. A sense of needing to control the situation? Yeah. And God's just trying to help me realize what a control freak I'm being right now. And, uh, maybe he wants to do some inner work at deeper layers of my soul. Mm-hmm. So that it's not actually about how I'm being patient, but how am I acknowledging the thing that's down deep within.

Rick: This saying the wall and the, and the six categories. That might be new language, but this is a very, very old idea. Mm-hmm. I think it was Calvin who said the, the heart is a, is an idol factory. I'm paraphrasing. Um, using the language of Tim Keller. I think he might say this contemplating stage that we're in.

This is where we're realizing that my struggle with patients is really a deep down idolatry issue.

Okay.

Svea: And that's one of the reasons why the wall is not a place of punishment. Mm-hmm. The wall is an invitation to something better. Mm. And so when we realize God is inviting us to do some of this deep work mm-hmm.

And seek healing mm-hmm. For things that have been holding us back or wounding us it's really, it can be an exciting place even though it's not necessarily a fun place. It's an opportunity to something so rich.

Rick: Alright,

Svea: so then as we move into stage five and becoming, yes. Now I'm becoming a more patient person.

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: And a big part of that is not because I have practiced it well. Mm-hmm. Or just done it over and over and over and over, but because. Jesus is this patient person. Mm-hmm. And I wanna be like Jesus.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: And so as God's done this inner work in my soul to help me see Jesus mm-hmm. With greater clarity, to have given me time to just be with him and recognize his patience with me.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Svea: Now I wanna begin to reflect that in a way that's far more genuine

Rick: Yeah.

Svea: Than just being intentional.

Rick: Yeah. Wow.

Svea: Then eventually, let's hope we get to that place.

Rick: So from simply being intentional it's like it becomes part of your identity.

Svea: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Wow. Mm-hmm. Okay. So loving. That's the last one.

Svea: That's what we're aiming for. When you're just, you're patient without thinking about it. It's just who you are.

Rick: So I'm gonna spend some time thinking about this. We're gonna spend more time talking about it later in the year. We're gonna, we're gonna spend a lot more time in the fall, but Faa uh, you did not seem to squirm when I'm asking you to be, to, to do this application thing.

Give us a little bit more clarity so you handled it like a champ.

Svea: Well, thank you.